I’m waiting for a used EV. I’ve never bought a new vehicle and have no desire to.
It’s not really a matter of realizing what’s better. It’s about what is cheaper.
That’s what I think. EVs aren’t functionally equivalent to ICE cars yet - most of them can’t go as far between fillups, and they take longer to fill up. Those are steadily improving. But the cost benefits are there. Back in 2013 when I bought my Leaf I went from spending $1800/year on gas to $300/year on electricity, and in 12 years my only maintenance costs were windshield wiper blades and a set of tires - which I would have needed with a gas car. But no oil changes, tuneups, no filters, belts or hoses, no spark plugs. No radiator problems, starter problems, pump replacements. I mean it’s almost like not having a car at all, except you have a car.
And they won’t need to cheat their emissions tests with evs
Also article quotes an executive but no labor leaders
I’m waiting for the next scandal to be around fudging battery monitoring and performance, just to pump the numbers up on the window sticker at sale.
I watched this happen with my Nissan once I figured out that the factory driving profile causes range estimates that only a hypermiler could achieve. Once I put a hundred miles of real-world driving data into it, I saw 20 miles vanish from the estimated range on a new battery. So, basically that, but worse.
Depends what you mean by “better” I suppose. Riding a horse is more enjoyable for me. Car is more efficient for long distance travel. I pretty much never drive a car for pleasure though.
I mean, kinda same, driving a gas car for pleasure or certain niche uses is great but practically it’s a huge waste of money and resources for a daily driver. Same as horses. I think the analogy works.
I guess my point was, better for what?
Travelling? Definitely not. Hard to beat a minute or two to fill your tank and get back on the road.
Daily commuting? Probably, I’d say this is probably the sweet spot for EVs. Charge overnight and you’re good for your commute.
Fun? Definitely better options available, and even when sticking to cars while the EVs tend to have better acceleration, pumping fake engine noises through a speaker is just fucking weird lol.
I could see them taking the fun vehicle spot if people don’t care as much about the fake noises, but the long distance one is gonna be a tough nut to crack without significant increases in battery tech to either get to the point where charging is absurdly fast or battery capacity is capable of going 8+ hours along with much more widespread charger access.
I really can’t say I know anybody who drives a car purely for pleasure.
I had a RSX type-s, loved that car used to just take drives in it.
Sure, but sometimes people will drive for pleasure, particularly in the summer with sports cars and the like. But typically those people have never ridden a horse or motorcycle, which are, imo, far better suited for pleasure riding.
It also has the added benefit of watching you all the time!
The electric motor is watching you?
Not exclusive to EVs though
You can barely get an EV old enough not to do it, if at all. You can easily get an ICE old though though
But yes, it’s all new cars.
Sure, but that’s still a stupid complaint though. No vehicle has to spy on you, people only allow cars to spy on them. The thing is, you’re an adult, you know how duct tape and screwdrivers work. If there’s some offending camera, just pull it out or cover it up. If you’re worried about it phoning home over a wireless connection, remove the wireless antenna. No car will prevent you from driving because an internal camera was disabled.
For now at least, in many cars it’s possible to remove the cellular modem component and bypass it while retaining nearly all functionality, though I’ve only ever tried it in regular gas cars.
The EVs may have more online requirements.
If I could trade my current car for a feature similar EV for no more than a coupld of grand out of pocket, I would.
Home charging, silence, no gas payments, and instant torque control for a couple of grands? Sounds like a sweet deal.
Its ugly, but you can ger bmw i3’s for less than 5K. If you just want a people mover…
I paid $6000 cash for my current car about eight years ago. I’m retired, so I only drive it about once a week. I’ve put less than 2000 miles per year on it. Also, no cameras, no screen, no phone app, no nothing I don’t need or want.
There’s no way I’m buying a $30,000 car, both because I couldn’t afford it, and because what I have fits my needs perfectly.
So, are EVs “just better”? For some people, or maybe most, I imagine so. But, no, not for me, not unless the VW boss wants to give me one for free.
Oh my god let us tell that CEO that some random on Lemmy, who doesn’t really drive, is not better off with an EV, since that contradicts his entire point!!!
VW is not really in the business of selling $6,000 used cars. “EVs are better (for people buying new cars)” says exec of company that sells new cars
One of the benefits of the EV incentives was that growing the EV market faster also meant growing the used EV market faster. You’re going to have to wait another ten years now
Apples and Oranges my firend.
You can also buy used ev’s for less than $6k.
The arguement wasnt about price, its about what is a better vehicle for the average driver.
I love cars, and im mourning the death of the manual transmission. But i bought an EV for my daily. Its just a better daily use car. Less maintenance, lots of convenience, no extra cost in gass prices and technically faster than my toy car. It doesnt give me the driving experience i want, but grabbing takeout, or sitting in traffic, its just better.
You will be left without gas for it though. That’s the key thing.
I have no doubts about electric cars being nice or “the future”, but the price of these things is still a problem.
A (reasonably) new one with the range I need (~400km+) costs way more than I care to spend. That is partly because batteries still cost too much, but also very much because they still have a tendancy to gatekeep larger range figures for use in luxury cars.
And getting older second hand is still too much a questionmark in terms of how much of a chance there be you’ll end up having to fork over big for a new battery or motor and/or write it off prematurely.
Another problem is that I also have no way to charge it at home and would be fully at the mercy of public charging infrastructure. And generally speaking as a taller man, I feel some of them can also be quite lacking in terms of interior space.
With the current charger technology, there are very few people who would actually need that kind of a range: you basically have to live in extremely rural areas (so there are no fast chargers anywhere), you need to drive multiple hours a day, and you don’t have any access to charging at home or at work.
In almost any other situation even on a long trip your bladder, stomach or back will stop you every few hours to take a break, which is enough time for a fast charger to top you back up to the next stop.
Why do you need 400km+ range? Is this for a daily/weekly need or a once in a quarter holiday trip style need?
This is the right question - people who have never owned an EV vastly overestimate the range they’ll need, almost always.
There’s already so many ev cars in scrap yards due to being mechanically totaled from dead batteries it’s not worth buying one unless you plan to lease or budget for a new battery/motor after the warranty is out. ICE cars at the price of EV cars still last way longer, and can be maintained to continue running without a mandatory motor replacement after a certain number of miles/hours.
It takes a really, really long time for EV batteries to “die.” They absolutely degrade and lose range over time, but you should still be getting significant usable mileage out of them. This sounds like unfounded propaganda to me.
Not top mention that the batteries can be recycled at end of life to be made into new batteries for other cars.
Source?
Loljk no u don’t
Do you have any source for this? EVs have so much fewer parts which need maintenance or could reasonably have to be replaced. Also batteries these days are gonna last for a long time judging from what I’ve seen.
I see some of the pain points from the original commentator, but it’s partially an unequal comparison, because many people compare used ICE cars to new EVs. But your comment is stating it like it’s snake oil.
I own a 12 year old volt. One of the community apps tracks crowd sourced battery degradation. My pack’s still about 75%-80% of it’s new range. I’m in the center of the bell curve, drive mostly on electric, but it can’t quite make it all the way to/from work anymore. :(
Chevy did a decent job at battery cooling. There are plenty of Nissan leafs that didn’t fair as well.
If I did have to replace my pack right now, (and it’s only a 10kWh) it would be around 8k, but they’re generally not available. None of the used packs on ebay have any assurance that they have any significant life left.
Bluebook on the car is maybe 5k but that is a hybrid. 8k would essentially total the car. If i did manage to get a remanufactured pack (assuming it lasted another decade) it’s still going to need wheelbearings, axels, suspension, steering, HVAC.
Just because an EV’s motor can last longer, doesn’t mean it makes a significantly better long term investment.
I have a 12 year old ICE car @ 172,000 miles and it needs none of those wheel bearings, axels, suspension and HVAC fixes. I would not bundle regular car issues with EV issues since it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer (and even model & year).
The high cost of a battery replacement compared to the cost of the car after a few years is a concern which is seems very relevant though.
172k on a car with no suspension issues ever, you’re in the red zone for all those kind of failures, that’s just luck or very very careful driving/maintenance.
I would not bundle regular car issues with EV issues
Except for oil changes and transmission issues EV’s suffer from the same problems. And an HVAC failure can destroy a batterypack
The batteries, there’s just no way around it. Batteries are expensive as hell. You could make the pack standard and small enough to diy replace, but then you lose efficiency, safety, and have higher resistance. I was kind of hoping we could do some kind of flow battery where you’d pull up to a gas station and just swap out your electrolyte, but the power density is just awful.
Talking about battery replacement for EV is like talking about engine replacement for ICE.
“Sure, ICE car are nice but the high cost of engine replacement after a few 100k km is a concern”
Batteries in today’s EV can last way longer than people expect, changing the battery is really not something that will be fine regularly, not more than changing the engine in current ice car.
Your location likely is helping the cause. Any car that has live life in a big city where it might snow will eat shit every day on rough roads.
Also, I don’t know a single soul who thinks they need to replace their shocks or struts. They wear out and the car is mostly fine as long as you’re driving peacefully. However, if you ever need to brake quickly or dodge something, those worn suspension components will greet you by not responding well and you could end up having a bad day.
Remember folks, your shocks and struts are a wear item. They usually wear out around 70k. Lower for hard city life, higher for glassy roads. No matter what, they do wear out, even if you’re not aware of it.
Luckily they test shock/strut function at the annual inspection. If it’s below a certain percentage, your car fails.
If they don’t do mandatory inspection in your country, you’re sharing the roads with death traps that could crash into you at any moment because who knows if they even have brakes. In that case, who cares about worn struts?
Anyway, from experience, original struts are usually good for 200-300k km but I’ve seen more than that and still good. On mostly German cars. Of course if you see an oil leak from a strut you should get that pair replaced immediately. At that kind of mileage, you get a handling improvement if you replace them before outright failure, but they’re not actually dangerous at anything resembling sensible driving.
Make it affordable and I’ll buy one tomorrow.
Let’s talk VW specific. I would absolutely love an ID.Buzz. But you made the fucking thing SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.
Heh, my understanding is that they are affordable, assuming you’re buying Chinese cars and your country hasn’t levied absurd tariffs on that one country in particular.
The car is also unnecessarily big, it feels like
Edit: I misunderstood
The Buzz is a van, it’s meant to be big so you can put stuff in it. It’s actually too small for my liking as it’s too low to fit my dirt bike in without a struggle and too short for a 1200x2400 sheet of ply/metal/whatever (my Transporter fits both of these nicely though).
Oh I thought it’s e.g. ID.3 ID.4, mistook “buzz” for “*”
Did VW ever implement one pedal drive? Total non starter for me a few years ago (got a volvo instead).
There’s B mode that will aggressively regenerate, but nowhere close to one pedal. Although I’ve found myself using the adaptive cruise control for no pedal drive
They still have a break pedal, if that is what you mean.
I wanted a Ferrari, but they made the fucking thing 6 HUNDRED AND 40 THOUSAND DOLLARS.
You probably don’t even know how much you’ve spent in gasoline and repairs for the ICE cars you’ve owned.
I calculated this. Came out to somewhwre under $5k to drive my Golf 4 for like 8 years including the buying price. But yea whatever floats your electric boat big dog.
$5k doesn’t buy 8 years of gasoline. Also, note that it’s always the gasoline people who think using names like “big dog” is a good idea.
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My wife’s plug-in hybrid charging (at home) costs the same as fuel for an ICE vehicle that gets 60mpg running 87 octane. Electricity is cheaper, but it’s also not free.
you might want to re-check your math.
Condolences to your wife. The rest of us are very happy with our PHEVs. Electricity is not free? Are you saying nuclear plants, hydro-dams, power grids and wind turbines aren’t free? Ok I’ll keep that in mind, thanks!
What are you driving that gets 60 MPG?
A 300cc motorcycle
Is that some kind of gotcha or something?
The average car buyer does not want to buy an expensive EV just to have an EV and will buy a $40k Toyota Sienna before they buy a $60k VW ID.Buzz.
Pretty easy to grasp…It’s not rocket surgery. Make affordable EVs and not upmarket EVs and people will buy them. China figured that out.
That extra $20k is for the EV’s battery. If you don’t spend it there, you’ll spend it on gasoline and ICE maintenance. Look at life cycle cost. Total costs over 8-10 years of ownerership. The average buyer will have less noise, less emissions, instant torque control, home charging, and cost savings if they keep the EV long enough.
Even assuming those numbers are accurate it’s irrelevant. If I don’t have $60,000 then I can’t buy a $60,000 car even if it would be a sound investment over the long run.
If you insist on buying a car new instead of second-hand, that’s on you.
Dude I’m only using your numbers.
$40k and $60k are YOUR numbers. I subtracted YOUR numbers to get 20k.
The used market isn’t much better. I can’t afford a $26,000 EV with 100k miles on it. That’s insane.
sounds like you want a free car.
A higher budget surely allows for more options and less excuses. In my view, anyone with a 50k budget has no excuse to choose ICE over EV.
You have a rough point, but a $20k delta is too much. Thankfully, the comparison is between a “special” car and a boring workhorse, so the price delta isn’t reflective of the practical choices. 7-passenger PV5 looks to be about $50k, so less than $10k delta between a Sienna and a comparable EV van. Still a pretty big gap, especially to take up front, but closer to reasonable given your reasons. We are seeing the gap close more aggressively in the 5-passenger segment, but 3-row still has been focused on EV only for ‘premium’ experience.
Lack of noise and emissions, instant torque control, and the possibility to charge at home are indeed premium experiences. A lot of ICE pushers are trying to get a free lunch here.
Sure, those are premium things, but don’t actually drive the manufacturer’s cost as those come mostly for free.
So it drives bigger margin for them instead, but at the expense of people perceiving EV as somehow fundamentally too expensive.
They’re inherent in the battery system. The manufacturer’s costs are in the battery. Propulsion, silence, no-emissions, instant torque, and home charging are the features we get with a battery whether we like it or not (no downside really). Price-wise, there is no point in talking about them separately. ICE pushers apparently forget the other features of the package. Manufactures must obviously charge a price for the package.
That extra $20k is for the EV’s battery.
People need to stop quoting Elon Musk. That was true in 2012. Buzz battery is 90kwhr, the cost of batteries is now $120/kWh. So the whole pack costs $11k. Funny how with ICE now one quotes the cost of a catalytic system or how much mining goes on for the platinum and rhodium in cats. ID Buzz is overpriced, plus it’s not even good. It’s a small van.
I’d like to preface all of the following with something: a vehicle should account for no more than 10% of a household user’s budget, some say up to 15% but most of the literature I’ve seen puts it at or under 10% to maintain fiscal responsibility. That’s monthly ofc, and puts the total budget somewhere around $1,200-1,400 on most of these cars
So how many people do you know who make between $120,000-140,000 per driver?
Some of us do, most of us don’t
I know plenty of people who cannot and or will not for various reasons ever make that much in their lifetimes
Let’s say a 19 year old getting their first car without support. You think they can afford a 60k car? Hell even a 40k? At +6% apr? They still need a car and not all of us have or had parents to help us foot that bill
How about even a used one ran into the dirt at 20-25k to “establish credit”? Think that’s a good idea either for someone like that? Its a terrible one
Further, if literally anything goes wrong with the battery before it’s paid off but out of warranty… Then what? File bankruptcy at 20-25? Take the credit hit and be unable to buy another vehicle or, or get student loans, or be able to get a mortgage because your credit is shot?
No matter if the payback even makes sense we have prime examples that the economy is down right hostile to EV owners with the EV tax road hike increases forcing EV users to pay up to 10x road “gas” tax equivalents of what petrol does in the US regardless if they drive 1,000 miles in a year or 40,000
Plain and simple, all commuter/work vehicles are not worth $40,000-60,000. They are grossly overpriced and have been since at least 2020
The $70,000 GMC EV work truck trim with 450 miles of range? That’s worth $45,000 max. The Tesla model 3 dual motor (which I paid $60,000 for new in 2023 btw) are worth $35,000 max brand new top trim model and has never been worth more than that despite the insane market gauntlet we’ve been run through
The person you are responding to is not even slightly wrong
Vehicles are grossly overpriced.
Front loading potential savings is not an acceptable practice in an economy where people do not have the option to go without a vehicle to function. Prices needs to crater. Companies need to be making any profits they do make off the back of quantity sold, and off government subsidies and cutting out middle men not massive margins per lesser quantities of vehicles at our expense, because as things stand they’re making their margins off of government bailouts anyways and consumers are perpetually the ones getting bent since taxes are our money and these incompetents are increasingly demanding more and more of it
I don’t think you wrote all of that just for me.
I didnt write it 🙃
VTT with a bit of editing removing punctuation and breaking up blocks of text
LLMs are useful for some things
Only if someone cares to read it.
China figured that out.
This isn’t an issue with electric vehicles its an issue with EV’s from traditional ICE based car companies, and the governments refusal to subsidize their purchase or the companies that manufacture them.
Sure, they have to buy their batteries from China, who probably enjoys that profit margin. Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years, pushing their ICE garbage instead of supporting local refinining.
Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years
Good thing we re-elected an administration that will encourage them to keep standing at the starting line, scratching their butts, watching the race on tv
Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years, pushing their ICE garbage instead of supporting local refinining.
Nope. Joe Biden spent billions on battery valley to make batteries in the USA, then you idiots re-elected Trump and he put your asses back in the stone age. That’s why Detroit is fucked. Then, he tariffed any imported batteries.
Yeah shame. Take out all the tech bullshit I dont want and I bet that number gets cut nearly in half. Abs, efi, maybe airbags if you want.
We can make simple vehicles. They just refuse to. Becuase simple won’t break and be unrepairable by the end user. Gotta jeep those stealerships in business with proprietary tools.
In short, with late stage capitalism you will never have a good car again.
Unfortunately, software defined vehicle is cheaper to build, then you get all the fancy stuff “for free”. One of the many problems legacy manufacturers have is the extra miles of wiring they need to install, mostly manual labor
The overall technology of EV is better than ICE but that doesn’t mean every EV is better than every ICE.
Cars may be better than horses but no horse ever exploded the way a Ford Pinto would.
You think no horse ever killed his rider for inexplicable reasons?
Living things are unpredictable. I’m not sure that argument holds up.
That’s not what my comment says. Give it an other read and you’ll see I addressed that.
Given that there was significant overlap between when cannons were introduced and horses were phased out of general warfare, I have no doubt that many unfortunate horses have in fact exploded.
Great, now I’m thinking about the Trojan horse but with high explosives.
Can i work on it? It’s it as serviceable as my Subaru? Are the parts as cheap? Cost of ownership seems to be a topic no one talks about.
Can i work on it?
Good question but a lot of what normal people might work on doesn’t exist, like oil changes, spark plugs, belts, transmission etc.
As far as I know, my EVs brake system is fairly normal so there may be parts, you may be able to work on that. But they also last much longer so many EV owners will never need to worry about it
Can i work on it?
This is a big one, if I can’t fix it myself then I don’t technically own it and a LOT of modern cars are in the same boat of making parts availability hell and the ability to fix them requiring special software tools.
People talk about that topic all the time.
The drive train generally doesn’t need service. You don’t have to change oil, you don’t have to change transmission fluid, your transmission probably won’t grind itself into metallic dust because the transmission is a single speed and it’s certainly not a CVT. You don’t have a timing belt to change, or a serpentine belt to change, or an air filter to change. You don’t have to sweat an emissions problem, you don’t have to worry about error codes about running too rich or too lean. You don’t have to worry about your headgasket leaking. You don’t have a bay of stuff heated to around water’s boiling point for extended durations accelerating wear on various hoses. You aren’t going to have a belt tensioner go south, the DC/DC converter is less likely to lose it than an alternator. You won’t need to replace spark plugs, you aren’t going to have a turbo that screws you over.
Instead of all of that, you have a pretty bullet proof drive train except that the battery will chemically wear, but even that seems to be not as bad as believed with battery management systems babying the batteries. The car almost certainly weighs too much, which will manifest in handling and tire wear.
And of course, there’s gas v. electric. If (and sadly only if) you charge at home, an EV in my area is roughly like having a hybrid and $1.00/gallon gas. If you charge publicly… yeah that’s priced really high.
So at one point, there will likely be a huge single expense for the battery. However, that is instead of frequent oil and air filter changes, occasional belt replacement, and a host of likely repairs that a gas car generally incurs over that sime time. One very big expense at once instead of tons of little expenses and a few big expenses.
If the initial cost of the vehicle were competitive, hands down the EV is going to be the right choice if you can charge at home. Trickier question in an apartment or renter’s scenario.
If you charge publicly… yeah that’s priced really high.
Even that is mainly if you use trip chargers. If there are destination chargers you can use, it may not be much more than home charging
That’s ignoring the very common issues multiple models have where the coolant leaks into the motor and you need a new motor/transmission unit. You really have to do your research on the exact model you’re buying.
And research battery pack repairability. New pack costs more than a used car, but in some, single cells can be replaced if needed. It’s rarely every multiple cells that fail, but if a single one does, the battery is nearly useless.
Hmm discussed recently just on Lemmy here: https://news.mit.edu/2026/us-drivers-electric-vehicles-offer-emissions-benefits-cost-savings-0512
I talk about cost of ownership but the ICE and fossil hordes try to silence us. Hiding the truth is part of their business model: “Only look at the sticker price and buy a new car each year to max out depreciation losses.”
EV’s are great! We save so much time and effort not having to cheat on emissions testing this way.
The problem is that modern cars are shitty. It doesn’t matter if it’s a petrol, diesel or electric car. If I can’t repair it myself, it’s a poor quality car. The fact that you might need specialized paywalled software to remove error codes after fixing the car is just awful.
Most people I’ve spoken with that claim that they don’t like electric cars eventually agree that they don’t like modern cars. Mainly due to how closed everything is.
Yeah, vendo lock in is what has stopped me from purchasing a BYD seal
Repairing doesn’t even really apply to evs. It’s not like you bust out a wrench to fix your tv.
It does. Brakes, suspension. Lights wipers window motors etc, all that shit breaks.
And when I need a fucking dealer computer to “unlock” it to fix my brakes or a broken window motor, fuck that shit.
If a TV cost $60k, I’d bust out a wrench to fix it. It’s usually a blown capacitor that costs pennies to fix.
CRTs are easily repairable with like 3 tools in most cases. Many are 30 years old and never been maintained properly still going. Flat screens are Another example of modern tech being shit for longevity and repairability.
EVs still have a ton of shit that will invariably break and need repairing/replacement at some point. A huge amount stuff I’ve had to fix on my cars had nothing to do with the engine/transmission and are universal on road vehicles: Brakes, rust, wipers, plastic in direct sunlight, digital displays, head lights, dozens of belts and motors that run on tracks, mechanical doors, AC.
Most of which can be repaired with a stop at parts store and a couple of common tools IF the manufacturer hasn’t locked it behind some bullshit security bolt or a lockout chip.
Doesn’t the door opening mechanisms on Tesla’s famously break all of the time?
No.
- historically there were reliability issues with the self-presenting handles on model s and model x, which they redesigned, but now are stopping production of
- by far the most produced are their model 3 and y, which are NOT self-presenting. You press in one side for the other side to pop out so this has never been an issue
Can they make real cars and not stupid egg crossovers?
I’m so damn sick of ugly ass crossovers.
I want the old 3-door hatchbacks to come back. Like how the civic hatchback used to be.
Smol car with a PHAT ASS.
People are only buying crossovers. Don’t blame car companies for making cars people buy.
I’d argue that crossovers are the “default” type of car now. They really are just hatch/wagon cars with some different styling and typically a slightly higher suspension.
Also: I’m glad people here are saying “crossover” rather than “SUV”. They are not the same.
They have become visually indistinguishable, though.