There’s B mode that will aggressively regenerate, but nowhere close to one pedal. Although I’ve found myself using the adaptive cruise control for no pedal drive
Naw one pedal drive is this neat EV feature you can drive with where if you take your foot off the accelerator the car starts to full regentl brake until it stops. Once you use it in a city you realize how much easier a car is to operate when you dont need to swap between pedals a ton. Its also nice because when you do need an aggressive brake, the time moving from pedals has already initiated a deceleration leading to a faster slow down.
Heh, my understanding is that they are affordable, assuming you’re buying Chinese cars and your country hasn’t levied absurd tariffs on that one country in particular.
The Buzz is a van, it’s meant to be big so you can put stuff in it. It’s actually too small for my liking as it’s too low to fit my dirt bike in without a struggle and too short for a 1200x2400 sheet of ply/metal/whatever (my Transporter fits both of these nicely though).
ID Buzzes have been selling for $15-20K under MSRP this year. My wife and I never expected to get one after they announced their pricing, but then $15K off a fully optioned one won us over. We grew tired of waiting on Honda to update their Odyssey. We’d been hauling 3 kids in our Accord Hybrid for 3.5 years and would have loved to drive an Odyssey hybrid. I did not want to buy a van with a V6 gas guzzler sporting less tech than my 9 year old Accord.
Yeah shame. Take out all the tech bullshit I dont want and I bet that number gets cut nearly in half. Abs, efi, maybe airbags if you want.
We can make simple vehicles. They just refuse to. Becuase simple won’t break and be unrepairable by the end user. Gotta jeep those stealerships in business with proprietary tools.
In short, with late stage capitalism you will never have a good car again.
I guess what I’m trying to say is there is a difference simplifying in an acceptable manner (perhaps backup cameras don’t need to be mandated) and doing so in an unsafe manner; I don’t think making seatbelts, airbags, or anti-lock brakes optional in the name of “simplicity” is a good idea.
Depending on how long ago you define as the period we had “good” cars, it might be an order of magnitude less safe. It’s hard to separate the unnecessary tech with things that have made cars exponentially safer over the past few decades.
I too wish for vehicles that are more simple, but let’s not toss the “safety” baby out with the “upgrades” bathwater.
I think depending on the model, peak is somewhere about 2005 (I’d consider your 2004 right in there) to about 2015. The inclusion of CarPlay was a big plus.
My next car will likely be a mid-teens Golf GTI. It may not be the best in any one category (efficiency, practicality, depreciation, safety, fun, repairability, etc) but it scores high in all of them.
I have zero interest in screens or media in cars. Usually car stereo systems suck, at least in cars I enjoy driving which are usually sporty (road noise, tire noise etc). I have a listening setup at home for actually enjoying music. If i want a podcast on a long drive, a cheapo stereo is just fine.
Unfortunately, software defined vehicle is cheaper to build, then you get all the fancy stuff “for free”. One of the many problems legacy manufacturers have is the extra miles of wiring they need to install, mostly manual labor
Even assuming those numbers are accurate it’s irrelevant. If I don’t have $60,000 then I can’t buy a $60,000 car even if it would be a sound investment over the long run.
I’d like to preface all of the following with something: a vehicle should account for no more than 10% of a household user’s budget, some say up to 15% but most of the literature I’ve seen puts it at or under 10% to maintain fiscal responsibility. That’s monthly ofc, and puts the total budget somewhere around $1,200-1,400 on most of these cars
So how many people do you know who make between $120,000-140,000 per driver?
Some of us do, most of us don’t
I know plenty of people who cannot and or will not for various reasons ever make that much in their lifetimes
Let’s say a 19 year old getting their first car without support. You think they can afford a 60k car? Hell even a 40k? At +6% apr? They still need a car and not all of us have or had parents to help us foot that bill
How about even a used one ran into the dirt at 20-25k to “establish credit”? Think that’s a good idea either for someone like that? Its a terrible one
Further, if literally anything goes wrong with the battery before it’s paid off but out of warranty… Then what? File bankruptcy at 20-25? Take the credit hit and be unable to buy another vehicle or, or get student loans, or be able to get a mortgage because your credit is shot?
No matter if the payback even makes sense we have prime examples that the economy is down right hostile to EV owners with the EV tax road hike increases forcing EV users to pay up to 10x road “gas” tax equivalents of what petrol does in the US regardless if they drive 1,000 miles in a year or 40,000
Plain and simple, all commuter/work vehicles are not worth $40,000-60,000. They are grossly overpriced and have been since at least 2020
The $70,000 GMC EV work truck trim with 450 miles of range? That’s worth $45,000 max. The Tesla model 3 dual motor (which I paid $60,000 for new in 2023 btw) are worth $35,000 max brand new top trim model and has never been worth more than that despite the insane market gauntlet we’ve been run through
The person you are responding to is not even slightly wrong
Vehicles are grossly overpriced.
Front loading potential savings is not an acceptable practice in an economy where people do not have the option to go without a vehicle to function. Prices needs to crater. Companies need to be making any profits they do make off the back of quantity sold, and off government subsidies and cutting out middle men not massive margins per lesser quantities of vehicles at our expense, because as things stand they’re making their margins off of government bailouts anyways and consumers are perpetually the ones getting bent since taxes are our money and these incompetents are increasingly demanding more and more of it
To be completely honest, I don’t expect many people will.
Increasingly, people are completely incapable of reading on these platforms… you know, these ones designed to communicate via…reading and writing,…But what can you do?
Whoever you are if you made it this far, if your attention span has managed to remain unharmed in today’s world, read or dont. Your choice, and your responsibility to deal with the fallout of either wasted time or losses in personal capability either way not mine
People need to stop quoting Elon Musk. That was true in 2012. Buzz battery is 90kwhr, the cost of batteries is now $120/kWh.
So the whole pack costs $11k. Funny how with ICE now one quotes the cost of a catalytic system or how much mining goes on for the platinum and rhodium in cats. ID Buzz is overpriced, plus it’s not even good. It’s a small van.
You have a rough point, but a $20k delta is too much. Thankfully, the comparison is between a “special” car and a boring workhorse, so the price delta isn’t reflective of the practical choices. 7-passenger PV5 looks to be about $50k, so less than $10k delta between a Sienna and a comparable EV van. Still a pretty big gap, especially to take up front, but closer to reasonable given your reasons. We are seeing the gap close more aggressively in the 5-passenger segment, but 3-row still has been focused on EV only for ‘premium’ experience.
This isn’t an issue with electric vehicles its an issue with EV’s from traditional ICE based car companies, and the governments refusal to subsidize their purchase or the companies that manufacture them.
Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years, pushing their ICE garbage instead of supporting local refinining.
Nope. Joe Biden spent billions on battery valley to make batteries in the USA, then you idiots re-elected Trump and he put your asses back in the stone age. That’s why Detroit is fucked. Then, he tariffed any imported batteries.
Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years
Good thing we re-elected an administration that will encourage them to keep standing at the starting line, scratching their butts, watching the race on tv
I calculated this. Came out to somewhwre under $5k to drive my Golf 4 for like 8 years including the buying price. But yea whatever floats your electric boat big dog.
My wife’s plug-in hybrid charging (at home) costs the same as fuel for an ICE vehicle that gets 60mpg running 87 octane. Electricity is cheaper, but it’s also not free.
Yep, I agree with your point. EVs have some desirable traits IMO, but some people seem to think they will never need expensive repairs and that their fuel is free.
I’m not paying $640k for that thing for other reasons. What the hell was Ferrari thinking? Are they trying to make the ugliest Ferrari ever so they can say “see, nobody wants and EV”?
Make it affordable and I’ll buy one tomorrow.
Let’s talk VW specific. I would absolutely love an ID.Buzz. But you made the fucking thing SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.
Did VW ever implement one pedal drive? Total non starter for me a few years ago (got a volvo instead).
There’s B mode that will aggressively regenerate, but nowhere close to one pedal. Although I’ve found myself using the adaptive cruise control for no pedal drive
One pedal plus adaptive CC is going to blow your mind. I love it!
One pedal driving is coming this fall in MY2027. I’ve never had it, so driving in B mode feels good enough to me.
NICE! True one pedal is my favorite and I can’t wait for you to also have it too.
They still have a break pedal, if that is what you mean.
Naw one pedal drive is this neat EV feature you can drive with where if you take your foot off the accelerator the car starts to full regentl brake until it stops. Once you use it in a city you realize how much easier a car is to operate when you dont need to swap between pedals a ton. Its also nice because when you do need an aggressive brake, the time moving from pedals has already initiated a deceleration leading to a faster slow down.
Ah that. I like that, as an optional feature
that’s fair. I love that my car ties it to the user profile so when others need to drive I can preserve my settings.
Heh, my understanding is that they are affordable, assuming you’re buying Chinese cars and your country hasn’t levied absurd tariffs on that one country in particular.
The car is also unnecessarily big, it feels like
Edit: I misunderstood
The Buzz is a van, it’s meant to be big so you can put stuff in it. It’s actually too small for my liking as it’s too low to fit my dirt bike in without a struggle and too short for a 1200x2400 sheet of ply/metal/whatever (my Transporter fits both of these nicely though).
Oh I thought it’s e.g. ID.3 ID.4, mistook “buzz” for “*”
ID Buzzes have been selling for $15-20K under MSRP this year. My wife and I never expected to get one after they announced their pricing, but then $15K off a fully optioned one won us over. We grew tired of waiting on Honda to update their Odyssey. We’d been hauling 3 kids in our Accord Hybrid for 3.5 years and would have loved to drive an Odyssey hybrid. I did not want to buy a van with a V6 gas guzzler sporting less tech than my 9 year old Accord.
Yeah shame. Take out all the tech bullshit I dont want and I bet that number gets cut nearly in half. Abs, efi, maybe airbags if you want.
We can make simple vehicles. They just refuse to. Becuase simple won’t break and be unrepairable by the end user. Gotta jeep those stealerships in business with proprietary tools.
In short, with late stage capitalism you will never have a good car again.
I’m certain airbags are a legal requirement.
Oh they are. Cameras and screens inside your car are legal requirements too. Shit the government does to state its legal or illegal is often not good.
I guess what I’m trying to say is there is a difference simplifying in an acceptable manner (perhaps backup cameras don’t need to be mandated) and doing so in an unsafe manner; I don’t think making seatbelts, airbags, or anti-lock brakes optional in the name of “simplicity” is a good idea.
Depending on how long ago you define as the period we had “good” cars, it might be an order of magnitude less safe. It’s hard to separate the unnecessary tech with things that have made cars exponentially safer over the past few decades.
I too wish for vehicles that are more simple, but let’s not toss the “safety” baby out with the “upgrades” bathwater.
Agree.
For me, 2004 was peak car. Safe enough , had abs and efi, still somewhat lightweight and easy to work on, etc.
I think depending on the model, peak is somewhere about 2005 (I’d consider your 2004 right in there) to about 2015. The inclusion of CarPlay was a big plus.
My next car will likely be a mid-teens Golf GTI. It may not be the best in any one category (efficiency, practicality, depreciation, safety, fun, repairability, etc) but it scores high in all of them.
Those are good cars!
I have zero interest in screens or media in cars. Usually car stereo systems suck, at least in cars I enjoy driving which are usually sporty (road noise, tire noise etc). I have a listening setup at home for actually enjoying music. If i want a podcast on a long drive, a cheapo stereo is just fine.
Unfortunately, software defined vehicle is cheaper to build, then you get all the fancy stuff “for free”. One of the many problems legacy manufacturers have is the extra miles of wiring they need to install, mostly manual labor
Yeah, very unfortunate!
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Is that some kind of gotcha or something?
The average car buyer does not want to buy an expensive EV just to have an EV and will buy a $40k Toyota Sienna before they buy a $60k VW ID.Buzz.
Pretty easy to grasp…It’s not rocket surgery. Make affordable EVs and not upmarket EVs and people will buy them. China figured that out.
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Even assuming those numbers are accurate it’s irrelevant. If I don’t have $60,000 then I can’t buy a $60,000 car even if it would be a sound investment over the long run.
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The used market isn’t much better. I can’t afford a $26,000 EV with 100k miles on it. That’s insane.
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sounds like you want a free car.
Dude I’m only using your numbers.
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I’d like to preface all of the following with something: a vehicle should account for no more than 10% of a household user’s budget, some say up to 15% but most of the literature I’ve seen puts it at or under 10% to maintain fiscal responsibility. That’s monthly ofc, and puts the total budget somewhere around $1,200-1,400 on most of these cars
So how many people do you know who make between $120,000-140,000 per driver?
Some of us do, most of us don’t
I know plenty of people who cannot and or will not for various reasons ever make that much in their lifetimes
Let’s say a 19 year old getting their first car without support. You think they can afford a 60k car? Hell even a 40k? At +6% apr? They still need a car and not all of us have or had parents to help us foot that bill
How about even a used one ran into the dirt at 20-25k to “establish credit”? Think that’s a good idea either for someone like that? Its a terrible one
Further, if literally anything goes wrong with the battery before it’s paid off but out of warranty… Then what? File bankruptcy at 20-25? Take the credit hit and be unable to buy another vehicle or, or get student loans, or be able to get a mortgage because your credit is shot?
No matter if the payback even makes sense we have prime examples that the economy is down right hostile to EV owners with the EV tax road hike increases forcing EV users to pay up to 10x road “gas” tax equivalents of what petrol does in the US regardless if they drive 1,000 miles in a year or 40,000
Plain and simple, all commuter/work vehicles are not worth $40,000-60,000. They are grossly overpriced and have been since at least 2020
The $70,000 GMC EV work truck trim with 450 miles of range? That’s worth $45,000 max. The Tesla model 3 dual motor (which I paid $60,000 for new in 2023 btw) are worth $35,000 max brand new top trim model and has never been worth more than that despite the insane market gauntlet we’ve been run through
The person you are responding to is not even slightly wrong
Vehicles are grossly overpriced.
Front loading potential savings is not an acceptable practice in an economy where people do not have the option to go without a vehicle to function. Prices needs to crater. Companies need to be making any profits they do make off the back of quantity sold, and off government subsidies and cutting out middle men not massive margins per lesser quantities of vehicles at our expense, because as things stand they’re making their margins off of government bailouts anyways and consumers are perpetually the ones getting bent since taxes are our money and these incompetents are increasingly demanding more and more of it
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I didnt write it 🙃
VTT with a bit of editing removing punctuation and breaking up blocks of text
LLMs are useful for some things
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To be completely honest, I don’t expect many people will.
Increasingly, people are completely incapable of reading on these platforms… you know, these ones designed to communicate via…reading and writing,…But what can you do?
Whoever you are if you made it this far, if your attention span has managed to remain unharmed in today’s world, read or dont. Your choice, and your responsibility to deal with the fallout of either wasted time or losses in personal capability either way not mine
People need to stop quoting Elon Musk. That was true in 2012. Buzz battery is 90kwhr, the cost of batteries is now $120/kWh. So the whole pack costs $11k. Funny how with ICE now one quotes the cost of a catalytic system or how much mining goes on for the platinum and rhodium in cats. ID Buzz is overpriced, plus it’s not even good. It’s a small van.
You have a rough point, but a $20k delta is too much. Thankfully, the comparison is between a “special” car and a boring workhorse, so the price delta isn’t reflective of the practical choices. 7-passenger PV5 looks to be about $50k, so less than $10k delta between a Sienna and a comparable EV van. Still a pretty big gap, especially to take up front, but closer to reasonable given your reasons. We are seeing the gap close more aggressively in the 5-passenger segment, but 3-row still has been focused on EV only for ‘premium’ experience.
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Sure, those are premium things, but don’t actually drive the manufacturer’s cost as those come mostly for free.
So it drives bigger margin for them instead, but at the expense of people perceiving EV as somehow fundamentally too expensive.
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This isn’t an issue with electric vehicles its an issue with EV’s from traditional ICE based car companies, and the governments refusal to subsidize their purchase or the companies that manufacture them.
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Nope. Joe Biden spent billions on battery valley to make batteries in the USA, then you idiots re-elected Trump and he put your asses back in the stone age. That’s why Detroit is fucked. Then, he tariffed any imported batteries.
Good thing we re-elected an administration that will encourage them to keep standing at the starting line, scratching their butts, watching the race on tv
I calculated this. Came out to somewhwre under $5k to drive my Golf 4 for like 8 years including the buying price. But yea whatever floats your electric boat big dog.
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My wife’s plug-in hybrid charging (at home) costs the same as fuel for an ICE vehicle that gets 60mpg running 87 octane. Electricity is cheaper, but it’s also not free.
you might want to re-check your math.
Off-peak electricity rate in my area is around $0.14/kWh. One full charge is about 14 kWh, $1.96. This can go about 30mi max, for $0.065/mi.
My 300cc bike getting 60 mpg at a cost of $4.20/gal comes out to $0.07/mi.
Did I miss something?
Wait until you factor in replacing the entire battery pack of an EV in 10 years for $10k…
Yep, I agree with your point. EVs have some desirable traits IMO, but some people seem to think they will never need expensive repairs and that their fuel is free.
What are you driving that gets 60 MPG?
A 300cc motorcycle
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As if you bloody know how much and how I drive lol, funny internet man.
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You interpreting what I said in that way is not my issue
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I wanted a Ferrari, but they made the fucking thing 6 HUNDRED AND 40 THOUSAND DOLLARS.
I’m not paying $640k for that thing for other reasons. What the hell was Ferrari thinking? Are they trying to make the ugliest Ferrari ever so they can say “see, nobody wants and EV”?
Hey man you posted a picture of a Nissan leaf by mistake. Maybe check the post…