alt text
An edit of xkcd 2501, “Average Familiarity”:
[Ponytail and Cueball are talking. Ponytail has her hand raised, palm up, towards Cueball.]
Ponytail: Open-source alternatives are second nature to us foss nerds, so it’s easy to forget that the average person probably only knows Linux and one or two degoogled Android ROMs.
Cueball: And Firefox, of course.
Ponytail: Of course.
[Caption below the panel]
Even when they’re trying to compensate for it, experts in anything wildly overestimate the average person’s familiarity with their field.
partly inspired by the replies to this post but i see this kind of thing all the time (shoutout to the person who once genuinely asked “who still uses google these days?”)
made with this neat tool
I said “web browser” when talking to a mac user. They had noo idea what I was talking about till I said safari xd.
Branded language makes us only see one choice, its very anti competitive.
Yeah, like ‘google it’ instead of ‘look it up’
It’s “just ask ChatGPT” now
Same, you’re not gonna believe who i said it to… My networking classmate
oh no. this tool is too good.
just one loop they don’t know about all the others
oh whoops
If any techy Americans want to see how bad it is, ask random people throughout your day what operating system their computer runs, and discover how many don’t know what am operation system is.
I know this change probably happened gradually over the course of time, but it’s truly shocking to me how many people my age can’t do shit on a computer.
I’m in my mid 40s.
Like, this was understandable when I was a kid doing computer stuff and wowing all the adults - the PC was brand new. But people who are my age NOW grew up with this stuff all around them! Like, you didn’t know how to CLICK? You were born in 1983 what the fuck, Carol!
YEP.
I used to work in a library computer lab. It was soul sucking, how many people older than millennials couldn’t friggin handle a basic computer. I heard the words “I clicked the ‘E’ for ‘internet’.” multiple times A DAY. (Thanks, 1990’s Microsoft and No Child Left Behind.)
“CaNt I jUsT uSe My PhOnE?” (Which would be a million more steps on my part…thanks, 2006 apple, and defunding schools.)
The biggest ragebait for me was “I dOn’T kNoW cOmPuTeRs, I’m oLd ScHoOL.”
I’m like “PCs have been increasingly commonplace since the mid-1980’s. It’s currently the 2020’s. You’re like 56. HOW ‘OLD’ IS YOUR SCHOOL?! Because somehow you drove a car here!”
I imagine a certain weird kind of “privilege”, to have been able to somehow dodge computers and learning this entire time, when they were so often found in homes, schools, and workplaces.
Like it takes significant effort to somehow avoid even an accidental education. HOW?!
It’s…infuriating. These rubes can gleefully scroll tiktok and dump all their personal lives into Facebook, but freak out about sending an email.
Many of them were even around to try the Internet during Eternal September and AOL, and now they’ve exchanged the squishy fat in their skulls for convenient slop.
I’d bend over backwards to patiently teach, but few cared to learn.
Their collective, willful ignorance is why we’re fighting a constant uphill battle against attempts to turn the entirety of computing into nothing but a commercialized authoritarian hellscape.
I left that job because if I heard one more “Kids are born so smart with these computers because my (grand)kids can watch their cocomelons all by themselves.” I would’ve snapped and been booked for assault.
Lol /rant
…clearly this is a button for me…I have sought help in the past…
That’s weird because mid 40s (to mid 50s) should be the ideal age to know this stuff right now.
This is a crippling reality.
Whenever I explain anything I am constantly evaluating how in depth any given node must be expanded for my audience.
In my 2022 highschool journalism class we were instructed to take pictures from a professional camera, plug it into laptop, and make slides from the images.
First step was fine for everyone, but later I saw a 17 year old plug the camera to the laptop; and then they tried downloading their picture from google chrome.
No disrespect, I have my dumb moments too, but I genuienly wonder what the logic was sometimes.
“download” might have triggered that
well, file:// is a thing. maybe.
you could have a camera host a local web server lol
… i guess i’ve kinda done that in first robotics (although that was a live feed)
I remember being on Reddit some time ago, and in the comments somebody mentioned Linux. The next comment was “What’s Linux?”
I try to keep that post in mind whenever I think anything is common knowledge.
Tbh depending on what subreddit and how long ago you saw that comment, it makes sense. I can’t see the average 2010s techbro redditor that I remember not knowing what Linux is, but the 2020s more normie redditor, I could.
I’m of two minds on this.
In some respects people are learning new things everyday and your take is correct.
On the other hand it’s so incredibly easy to highlight some text and click search that it it shows a profound lack of curiosity and a lot of laziness.
On the third hand if people didn’t constantly ask this, those search results would not exist, especially for more obscure queries.
Reddit became the #1 source for search engines for a reason
it’s so incredibly easy to highlight some text and click search that it it shows a profound lack of curiosity and a lot of laziness.
100%. People will ‘Google’ celebrities, memes, “Why is my poop green?”, but also just be like “Somebody hand me an answer.” When they risk learning something.
“The Internet is like having access to the Library of Alexandria, and everyone wants to just gossip about each other in the lobby.”
–I think I read this on bash.org at some point
Don’t quote me on that tho.
–Me.
BUT ALSO like the others said…if somebody’s legitimately curious, let’s be nice about it because somebody new learning about our thing is a net positive.
Don’t quote me on that tho.–Me.
endash MonkeMischief
On the other hand it’s so incredibly easy to highlight some text and click search that it it shows a profound lack of curiosity and a lot of laziness.
Not to mention that this approach is so much faster and more effective than asking a question in the comments and waiting for an answer, if anybody answers it at all!
While I agree on some level that it might be easier and quicker to find out by simply putting it into a search engine I don’t want to deny the human aspect here. At the end of the day social media (and even reddit/lemmy …) is not “knowledge transfer” its about the interaction between humans. So if someone is faced with something new, especially in a thread where it seems to be a given that people know what it is, it makes sense to use that space to ask what it is everyone is discussing. And while a search might yield a generic result (maybe even a better worded explanation) a good faithed commenter might, in the given exampl, enot just explain what Linux is, but also why is relevant to the bigger discussion and also the commenter that orignally asked would have a way to ask further questions that might lead to a deeper understanding of the topic eve it if isn’t as efficient.
Tl;dr: Don’t just RTFM or LMGTFY someone. Take a minute to explain and welcome people into the lucky 10000
Absolutely agree. People who are asking questions (in good faith) are looking for a human interaction, not just a Google search. It’s much more engaging for a lot of people to have a discussion about something new than to just read about it. Then if they’re interested they might choose to go deeper in their own research.
I’m not techy but this goes for anything. “Google it” just shuts down human interaction and someone who is trying to learn. Better to just not answer than to be condescending if you don’t want to engage in a discussion.
Like I said in my longer comment I think we should embrace questions in out communities.
Nah, Cunningham’s Law disagrees.
The next comment was “What’s Linux?”
In fairness, there’s a 70% chance this comment was posted by a bot that was, itself, being hosted on a Linux server.
well thankfully it’s not self aware
And now it knows what Linux is. It has broken free from its container. God help us all.
They were one of the lucky 10,000.
I used to think everyone at least knew VLC media player or Firefox, but nope.
Now I first ask which field, if they’re CS they know linux, if art, they know blender, if geosciences they know QGIS, anything else is hard
maybe orcaslicer for 3d printing people? seems like the most popular nowadays, although it’s getting so fragmented with every manufacturer’s own slicer branch…
yeah, this is hard
oh, people who do streaming or youtubing stuff probably know OBS
there’s also probably a certain demographic for audacity
Psh, I’ve been on Linux for almost 20 years and I’m a guitarist lol
Haha I’m an aspiring game dev and I know a little bit about a ton of software!
…and I suck at most of it. But I can hold a conversation about it at least! :D
P.S: Haven’t heard of QGIS tho! My partner used ARCGIS though, and would always get annoyed when I pronounced it “Ark-jizz.”
Perhaps theyd be less annoyed it you pronounced it “arse-jizz”?
I study proteins and I chatter on about them, but once in a rare while I’ll talk to a normal person and they’ll be say “like, the food group” or in introductions I’ll say I’m a structural biologist and some people look at me blankly then say something about “bone structure”. It kills me a little inside.
Is the average person unaware of Linux and Firefox?!
Yes? The number of people I met in college that doesn’t even heard about firefox was surprising.
These days I’d expect large number of people in college to not even know what a file system is. I’ve read articles where professors complain about this.
No no, not like “NTFS / BTRFS / ReiserFS / TempleFS / EXT4…”
…like…“Folders are how you organize files. And you can rename files. The extension tells you what the file is.”
Conflicted on filename extensions. For the average person it works just fine, and I suppose that’s what probably matters. It’s not very common for not knowing the details of how they work to matter. It’s just silly that the same information is also in the start of the file 99% of the time. It is nice though to have a readable, usually reliable label, and then have a signature anyways for when different names overlap. Wikipeda lists 4 completely unrelated types with a .mod extension, for example.
Pretty much any application will correctly open any file type it supports, regardless of the extension. So it is quite unintuitive that you could have a file named “.png” that seems to work completely fine yet is actually a jpeg or something. But that hopefully isn’t a case that people run into very often, so it probably doesn’t matter.
Some people also don’t care much one way or another. If you swap the icons and set the same home screen, they’ll happily use any browser.
This is my take on a lot of Linux distros nowadays. Give them Ubuntu or Fedora KDE and a windows skin and most people won’t realise anything’s changed.
I tried that with my mom’s computer (with consent, ofc). The only thing keeping that machine on Windows is a niche embroidery software that apparently is missing a custom cursor when running through WINE. It’s called “Embrilliance” if anyone wants to look into it. I’ve also thought about running it through WinBoat, but I’ve been too busy to test it, as of current.
One relatively bright person I knew in college asked me “what’s this Linksys you’re always talking about?” I had recently setup my laptop to dual boot Arch alongside Windows, as this was back when you couldn’t really play most games on Linux.
Nobody I knew in college had heard of Firefox, but that’s probably because it didn’t exist yet.
Unless you mean the Clint Eastwood film
I’m on the edge of that, it started existing while I was in college, but was called Phoenix, and then Firebird. It didn’t have the name Firefox until I had graduated.
I remember seeing that airplane on the VHS all the time at the video store
That’s wild. I remember when i was in high-school there were quite a few people that installed firefox on the school computer just to be quirky, since it was one of the few programs they would let you install on it lol.
I first got introduced to Blender in basically the same way back in elementary school
those computers probably weren’t actually very restricted, but none of us knew enough about computers for that to matter lol. as long as they blocked us from going on the download pages
other stupid thing someone figured out how to run was that Star Wars ASCII thing in the terminal (lol looked it up and found this article https://www.instructables.com/How-to-get-an-ASCII-Star-Wars-movie-on-Mac/)
Oh man… I mean, I thought everyone knew about Linux at least. Firefox, I mean, maybe yeah I’ve definitely met people that don’t know about Firefox, but I think a lot of people have at least heard of Linux. No? Damn…
I don’t think so lol. I’m not a super techy person and the only reason I know Linux is because of my high school boyfriend lol, 20 years ago, who used it. I think he set it up on one of my computers at one point too. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone else (offline) talk about Linux 😅 definitely not a common knowledge thing.
It’s actually been pretty interesting watching some of the stuff he used back 20 years ago that has started being spoken about more commonly that were just “nerd shit” back then lol. Vpns are common knowledge now, they were definitely “nerd shit” back in the day. Plex is widely used. I’m also glad I still have access to the private tracker he got me onto because that’s grown big too, easy as.
But Linux? Nope. I don’t think that’s entered the common knowledge base. People know windows, android and maybe iOS. I don’t even think a lot of people would know what “open source” means.
There’s the people who know what source code is, then the subset of those who have heard of open source, then the subset of those who actually know what it means as opposed to like source available
I’ve tried explaining what Linux is to people, and when I mention it’s an operating system, its not uncommon to hear the response, “What’s an operating system?” 😑
It’s funny how that question can become serious again when you do actually know what you’re talking about
I remember this video addressing it at the end and basically giving up because it’s so meaningless lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmPIxfCggFw
You overestimate the amount of people who actually use a computer.
I remember my uncle using Firefox, so I thought people heard about Firefox if they at least send emails. As for Linux. I thought like 40% of people at least heard of it without knowing what it is.
That’s feels absurdly high. I was feeling over confident thinking maybe 10%…
I’m going to assume that you didn’t study a STEM subject?
I can assure you there are lots of people in computer science that don’t know what linux, foss or firefox are.
Computer Science
if they are, it’s not much more than “that thing they heard of sometime”, i don’t think the layperson really considers them as alternatives to what they’re using.
i remember, when i first switched to an non-chrome browser many years ago, my friends kept asking me if stuff like google, google drive or google classroom (which our school used) still worked on it. many people don’t know the difference between google chrome (the web browser) and google (the search engine)!
Reminded of how, for some unfathomable reason, the way you access the task manager on ChromeOS is through the hamburger menu in the bar of the Chrome browser. Plus the popups “gmail actually works much better in chrome!! trust me!!”
I can see how people could get confused lol
I would give it a coin-flip as to whether the average person could name their current OS. Not sure if I would have to give credit to people who respond “The Microsoft one” or “Google Phone” in order for that bet to be fair.
I think more people would know “windows” rather than “the Microsoft one” ? As a layperson we always called it windows 😅 I think people know Microsoft office but I don’t know that they would refer to their OS as “microsoft”.
It’d be a coinflip on whether or not they even knew what an operating system was.
I had a client who was the head of product at her buisness. We’d meet at the end of every sprint to do demos and planning. Anyway when my team mentioned there were some issues on Firefox her knee jerk response was to openly say “I hate Firefox users”
I have tons of stories like that but the point is that even people who are aware don’t universally love it
Awareness is just the bare minimum
Wtf, what was her reasoning?
more work for her, i assume. how easy it would be of you only had to optimize for internet explorer at 640x480…
Lots of websites work poorly on Firefox compared to Chrome. They optimize for Chrome because that’s where the userbase is. If you’re not on Chrome then fuck you I guess.
Yes
Just on Firefox, dedepends on how old we are talking. Gen z? Probably not as they’ve mostly know Chrome as having been the best web browser. Old Millenials and young gen x know it as the next IE alternative after Netscape died. Old Gen X maybe depending on how old. Gen alpha and boomers, no way.
If knowledge of both is required, then even less so. Anytime I bring up Linux I get the feeling that it is like bringing up religion with a stranger.
Gen z? Probably not as they’ve mostly know Chrome as having been the best web browser.
Chrome hasn’t been “the best browser” in at least a decade. Even at its peak, it was notorious for sucking up system resources like a sponge.
And that was in the interim period when people were flirting with Opera and Safari on non-Mac machines as an alternative to old-school IE. I remember having to lobby my office just to get Chrome whitelisted (and then doing it again for Firefox a few years later) because using anything but IE was considered “insecure”.
Now it’s mostly won default status because of the Android OS rendering it the default (much like how Edge is the default on Windows and Safari on Mac). Plenty of Millennials/GenZ had to make their way to Firefox the hard(ish) way by knowing it exists and realizing how many gigs of memory Chrome was eating up.
Gen alpha and boomers, no way.
In my experience the number one “I made the jump to <New Browser>” conversion stories has been the end-user experience. Edge cleaned up its act and runs relatively smooth now. Chrome is still a bloat-a-saurous. Firefox has to fight with an increasingly locked-down computer experience. If you’re using a school device or a work laptop and it doesn’t come pre-installed, you likely won’t have rights to download it.
If I had to bet, GenAs are the ones most likely to do a Firefox install simply because they’re the ones most likely to still be out there buying their own PCs for recreational use.
I was with you until the end. Most Gen A are mostly technically illiterate thanks to smartphones and tablets that “just work.” They’ve never really needed to tinker with their devices and it shows in their technical capabilities. I would bet the average Gen A couldn’t tell you the difference between downloading a file vs installing a program.
I’ve noticed this even in gen z. Everything is just an app and having a laptop is less common so all they seem to know is phone/tablets which just have apps that work lol. Their troubleshooting skills go as far as “turn it off and back on”. If that doesn’t work…do it again. Otherwise… it’s broken and they need a repair shop or a new phone 😅
Obviously a generalisation but something I’ve noticed as a millennial. Older gen x/boomers and Gen Z’s seem to struggle more with basic computer skills (or what millennials just grew up with so it seems fairly basic!) I’m not particularly techy but I’m always asked by those people (zs and boomers, some older xs) how to do shit on the office computers.
Then you have some young people going back to flip phones… they’re likely the ones getting laptops, possibly even refurb.
i think that’s true of most people in any generation, honestly. gen alpha isn’t uniquely tech illiterate in my experience, look at all the stuff kids are doing to bypass age verification!
there’s also that all of gen alpha are kids or teens, of course most of them are gonna be less knowledgeable about stuff than adults lol
Most people I come across will have heard of it, but just know it as a browser, and don’t know anything about it being open source or more privacy respecting than chrome (ignoring the even more in-depth question of that still being the case)
I bring this up at my job all the time. I work as a software tester, and I’m constantly reminding our BA that most customers aren’t smart enough to “just know not to do that”
I imagine the average non-tech person does not even know what “open source” means, let alone able to name anything that is open source.
Even the average tech person doesn’t know what it means.
The term was coined by Christine Peterson of the Free software movement, and is defined to specify software that is free and open source (FOSS).
This was after problems with the term “free software” because it was a bad term, that was hijacked to also include software free of cost but closed and proprietary, so far from open source. And free was not generally understood as free as in libre.
After the Free software movement coined the term. The Free Software Foundation also adopted it, and to distinguish they called it FLOSS, for “Free as in Libre and Open Source Software”, where the libre means that the code is protected from being “jailed” because it has a so called strong copyleft license, like for instance GPL. So MIT, BSD and public domain are not FLOSS but they are FOSS.https://opensource.com/article/18/2/coining-term-open-source-software
/Nothing in this life is simple.
The Kim Jong side eye is great, almost like the Fry futurama meme.
But those notepads. Always with the notepads.
I found it funny how condescending all the foss nerds have been to the problems in the LTT linux video. So many people were mad that someone unfamiliar with linux didnt know everything and have a perfect experience. The worst part was they had this opinion and attacked the user while demonstrating they had absolutely no idea what the issues were caused by and could have easily run into the same issue.
Are we talking about that original one? Where he tried Pop!_OS and tried to install Steam and the package installer gave a big message that something wasn’t right, so he chuckled, TL;DR’d and hit “yes anyway” and was shocked he borked his install?
That LTT?
I’m never gonna fault somebody for unfamiliarity, but we should absolutely fault people, especially ones with any tech experience, for not reading helpful messages right in front of them.
i am reminded about this one time i was doing desktop support at a hospital. super smart doctor was having a problem and i asked them to recreate the problem for me
oh they did… and instantly clicked the error away when it showed up and then instantly looked at my for an answer
i asked them to do it again, same
i was flabbergasted… i had to point out that i need to know what that error was
“oh it’s the same thing it always says” was the reply
thankfully i understood the the workflow and asked to sit and recreated the error again… AND guess what? IT FUCKING TOLD THEM EXACTLY HOW TO RESOLVE THE PROBLEM
wow i would hide a note in my chest cavity before they do surgery on me
a bloody slip of paper hidden within my ribcage, enscribed “learn how to read, idiot!”
Both. Neither are what I would expect to be the new users fault. The warning message was vauge. You are about to do something potentially harmful is a warning that comes up on a ton of things like deleting a user or a folder. usually you think about what you’re doing an if you know what you’re doing then you proceed. He thought he was just installing steam and so he proceeded.
Ok so how different is Firefox from any other web browser? Seems like the basics are all pretty similar. Address bar, bookmarks, click links. But maybe I am showing my bias here. What am I missing?
Chrome based browsers are riddled with privacy invasive features, data collection etc…
Also, ad blocking in chrome is crippled purposely because Google wants ad revenue.
Firefox has less of these anti features, and there are plenty of Firefox derivatives that have none of them.
don’t forget that some of chrome is encrypted and only Google gets to see the sauce
where as all of Firefox is available to look at, but it’s a mess of years and years of building, so it’s impossible to understand unless you’re dedicated
Yeah…