- cross-posted to:
- programmer_humor@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- programmer_humor@programming.dev
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It feels disengenuous to say people vibe code things.
I know it’s correct English, I just think it’s kind of a bullshit statement.
When dumbasses talk to AI’s and the AI’s do things for them, it’s wild to think the credit goes to the dumbasses.
This is like your boss saying he did all your dev work and calling it “boss coding”.
It’s more accurate to say somebody spent a > couple thousand dollars and a few weeks project-managing an AI.
It’s not nothing, but it’s also not coding.
The only reason Microsoft exists today is because of Exchange and an old market share on consumer/prosumer OS.
They’re a glorified email hosting company and an embarrassment to software development. Idc what AI does to their shitty software. Fucking hate Outlook.
Their user management and device management are basically unmatched by any other provider.
Active Directory is used in close to every company just because of how the sheer amount of features that are useful to businesses.
It is easier to shift your business away from Adobe than it is to shift away from AD.
That’s not really accurate, Azure is massive.
Azure is like the SharePoint of cloud services. The controls are horrible. They keep making breaking changes to how they do crap; the whole thing is unintuitive enough that you really need someone trained to use it.
I stood it up beside AWS and used them both for what they were cheaper for; I eventually gave in and migrated the last few images I had over there to AWS.
Azure works, but it’s not good. IMO, the only reason it exists is that they have good Datacenter licensing fees and people using Entre to get away from having to host their own DCs.
But irrelevant for most users. Azure can stay all it wants but we must be freed from the shackles of Microsoft Office
Maybe for most personal users, but in B2B (where the money is) …
I’ve never understood the appeal with Azure. I was forced to use it for 4 years and hated every second of it. It’s really awful.
Only because Microsoft offers bundle deals between Azure and O365 for business customers. The point still stands.
Linux
I remember when companies hosted their own email. Giving up control of that was the beginning of the end.
There’s a hobby project I’ve been working on for over a year, but now I’m not sure I’m even going to bother to release it because everyone will just assume I vibe coded it in a weekend.
If it’s open source, won’t the commits be enough to prove you didn’t do it over a weekend?
Please do release it! The loudest voices on social media shouldn’t make your decisions for you.
Good point.
This is a pretty stupid project because only office already exists as a very competent msoffice clone.
To be fair, Libre Office has been around more than 15 years and the AI clone of MS Office is in the experimental alpha stage. I mean, hate AI but at least think rationally.
collabora for me. Libreoffice-based but adjusted for “normies” (user interface from this century)
The 1995 user interface soothes my nerves but I will give collabora a try
Which is entirely tragic, because LibreOffice is good, I respect hand coding more than the products of a prompt slot machine.
Is it though?
I try it but it doesn’t feel good. It feels like a clone of Office 2004.
—
I just installed it, open an xlsx file, it opens to the document explorer panel not my document.
Okay, weird, where’s my file? Open it again.
It’s your first time here, customize the app! Here are 5 different UI paradigms to choose from. Okay, I guess compact?
Don’t forget the theme! Sure, okay, use automatic theme and default 2004 style icons.
LibreOffice needs to restart to apply settings. I watched it dynamically update in the background, but okay.
Restarts Tip of the day: you can change your appearance settings! Run this action now? No. Why? Close.
Okay, I spent all that time customizing my tab bar, and yet, Calc doesn’t use a tab bar, so there’s no change at all after all that? No idea if that’s a macOS thing or not because it puts the toolbar values in the menu bar.
Okay, well let’s make a pivot table. Seems decent, it’s a clean Excel clone here, decent functionality. Needs a count distinct and some custom aggregations.
What’s this “Data” field though? Drag it to first slot: LibreOffice hard crashes. At least it saved my document.
Reopen file, let’s zoom out. Click and drag zoom slider, it creates a glitched rectangle around the active cell that tears vs rest of screen that doesn’t always update. It looks like the full page only zooms on certain values while deagging, but on release that sticks.
Let’s make a chart. Select 3 items plus total in my pivot. Click chart button. 3 bars in the chart, where my total bar? Data field is blocked out on pivot take charts. Change chart type, wait 3 seconds for a re render. Try to move the chart but have to click off first.
Okay, let’s delete the chart now. Press delete button: “This function cannot be completed on the selected objects”. Huh? Oh I have to click off, then select the chart again, then delete it.
—
That was my 10 minute experiment. It feels just as bad in a web browser. The Skia renderer is so much better than the old system, but like, I found all this crap in 10 minutes.
I really want this to be good, but it needs a critical editor to go through it with a fine toothed comb. Honestly, they should crib Google Sheets, since it’s got a better interface than Excel now.
Ima be honest, I use it like all the time and I’ve never had a problem with it. Especially to the degree that you’re saying you had in just 10 min.
If youre fluent with Office tools then you should be able to use it.
The only single thing I noticed explicitly that bugged me was it not opening template files as a new file so if I saved it would save over the template.
You can argue that the math editor kind of sucks, which fair, if I was doing a discrete mathematics paper I’d be doing it in LaTeX which has like decades of modules and academia behind it
LibreOffice just outright stating their policy of ‘no AI’ as a feature made me respect them so much more.
They allow the use of AI for contributions but with multiple restrictions: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy
Based, x2
I wonder how long this will hold. Remind me 3 years?
I think “no AI” policies are a good thing and the intention is (likely) not literally forbidding AI; they couldn’t in any meaningful way. But the code should have a human attribution and ownership. If the code reeks of LLM, it’s shitty code quality. If people open MRs saying it was written by an agent, they distance themselves from their contribution but expect others to review and integrate it; which is also shitty behavior.
If on the other hand it’s well crafted code that was being thought through and refined, no one should or could care if an LLM was involved.
Yes, eventually no one will care, that’s my point. Using AI will become as normalized as using the internet for help, so the no AI policy will not hold. I agree that people should still own their changes and be held responsible for the quality.
Edit: I checked the actual source, they actually already allow the use of AI for contributions but with multiple restrictions: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy
No, there always will be no ai movement
They already allow AI as shared in my edit. Do you mean no AI features in their products maybe? I bet it will come too, some kind of chat interface to modify the document. IMO the reasonable choice is to make AI features opt-in only.
It’s only tragic for a month, after which the other project gets abandoned because its unmaintainable or the vibecoder got bored and moved on to another viral idea
I’m not going to switch to something unless I know its going to be around when I need it
abandoned because its unmaintainable
Exactly this. It’s hard enough maintaining my own code. It can take a good 15 mins or so to familiarise myself with something I haven’t worked on in a short while. Seeing code that isn’t mine is very challenging. Not the code itself, but the methods and structures used by the other person. All that has to be done before hunting bugs and adjusting features. Then of course there’s the things you don’t know about that can be easily missed.
An AI would need to thoroughly know the code and detailed context on the decisions behind it all, every session, in order to be able to maintain it with vibe, because the vibe coder won’t know any of this.
To me, its tragic for exactly that reason; the vibiot, is lavished and rewarded with attention, when they don’t even understand the outputs from their prompt slot machine. So when they get bored or confused by their projects and chase the next craze…The person that should’ve gotten the accolades for understanding and maintaining their work, is forgotten still. I don’t like this timeline, its a stupid time to be alive.
The person behind all these *craft projects has (or claims to have) made millions from his AI image / video creation services and scam-enabling deepfake voice cloner. The projects are linked to and funded by his commercial endeavors. He’s also extremely exuberant about real developers and creators losing their jobs, and suffers from massive AI psychosis. Unfortunately I don’t think he or this project is going anywhere.
I don’t think any of it will ever actually work, but he’s very good at making outlandish comments and drumming up hype, so we’re going to keep hearing about it anyway.
That rule where something is expected to last in the future as long as it already has in the past probably applies here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
Neat, I haven’t heard of this one before. I’ll likely use it in the future
Yeah, I love little rules of thumb like that
That’s why I code in Fortran
Damn; looks like grandma is going to outlive us all
The wikipedia article on the effect covers this with an awfully blunt aside lol
The Lindy effect applies to non-perishable items, like books, those that do not have an “unavoidable expiration date”.[2] For example, human beings are perishable
It’s good enough that my 75yo mother picked it up without trouble when I switched her to Mint after W10 went EoL.
Same. My 60+ mother got a new computer recently, saw the prices of MS Office and told me “install that free thing”. So far no complaints, first remark was “well, looks like it has all the same buttons, works for me”
I wish the people at my company were like your mother. Instead, they freak out about the smallest of changes in the UI of the same application. God forbid they have to move to another application entirely. Had a user freak out their application wasn’t licensed and they couldn’t use all functions anymore. Turns out they just managed to somehow hide the toolbar with all the options… These are people anywhere from 20 to 60 years old, btw.
Yeah, it is not an age thing. I’m very happy that my mother has always been pretty good at programming solving. Although she never did any real tech related job, I believe this is a question of attitude more than anything else.
When she proudly tells me she used my dad’s phone to google for a fix for her phone acting up, my inner first year support monkey is proud :)
‘prompt slot machine’ <- I’m borrowing that
Or just slop-machine in short
Enjoy, its such a good turn of phrase!
that doesn’t work
You see, they took the efforts to replicate Microsoft excel experience.
Excel is the 7th ring of hell
What level is Teams?
Hells sewage tunnels.
Satan just asked god to add new layers of hell.
But they got stuck in infinity meetings
they made Teams 2, Satan might not get the note because he uses teams.
He also asked to remove all the fun emojis because fun is banned in hell.
If you think using it is bad, try deploying/maintaining it
And Libreoffice is great. I got through grad school using it. I had to look up a lot of the button locations and formulas but not having Onedrive hork up everything made it all worth it.
Same. LibreOffice and Latex
LaTeX, really? Its like evil markdown.
If you want to typeset math, yes really. And IMO formatting control in LaTeX is unmatched and then some in word processors.
Plus TikZ is incredible.
Switched to Typst and love it. I’d say I use LibreOffice much less because of Typst.
Thx ill ckeck it out (and tx to the other typst folks, just too tired to keep replying )
Wait. There are other Typst folks? I don’t see the comments!
At least “back in my day” there was no alternative if you wanted to write a paper (or a thesis).
Even in undergrad, I swear using good LyX templates nets you half a grade just for beautiful presentation. And if you throw Zotero in there for the automated citation management, it’s glorious for research papers.
In my day we used bibtex, uphill, in the snow!
It’s mark-phd-down, that’s why it’s not easy to start with.
Best name ever. My issue is that its not very read friendly. (Had quite a headache doing papers in it.)
No. If you format aomething in latex it will look like you want. Word and even libre writer will just mess up formatting at the slightest inconvenience
.md files are agnostic and can be read by pretty much anything. I care for the content to be preserved, the “look” can be handled later. Considering sloppification,Data preservation and accessibility should be held to a premium at this point.
lmao real
Overall Libre Office works fantastic. My only gripes is inserting an image into a document is way worse than word still, but overall it’s only a mild inconvenience.
Word only gets worse each update, and libre just gets better each update
I agree with the image thing, I’m taking courses that require a lot of screenshots to be put into documents and it’s a bit annoying to do. Although, I get the feeling that it’s difficult because the goal is to give you more control and consistent results, rather than to “be easy”. I’ve had a ton of difficulty dealing with Microsoft office and images as well, but that is usually after the image is in there and I want to fine tune it. Also, I can grab an odt file from 15 years ago and it’s laid out exactly the same as when I first made it, I can’t open up a docx from two years ago without word messing up some part of the formatting.
For anyone not already aware, there was a push in the early 2000s to require government documents to be in a standard format rather than giving a specific vendor (Microsoft) unfair advantage (official government endorsement). LibreOffice (OpenOffice at the time) used the standardized ODF format, which should’ve pushed many European governments to switch to an open source office suite. Instead, Microsoft bribed a bunch of people to push through their “OOXML” format as a standard, even though it was just a snapshot of Office’s behavior, bugs and all.
There is another twist to this in that the OOXML format didn’t actually define the bugs in the format and MS Office itself didn’t actually follow the officially defined specification they pushed through. This inevitably led to every product that tried to make use of the official spec (e.g. Open Office) failing to be compatible with MS Office. It took the open source devs many years to properly duplicate the buggy mess that is the real MS Office formats.
“… an AI slop version of Microsoft Office that doesn’t fucking work” also known as Microsoft Office 365
Decompilation projects are getting attention right now because AI models being able to do it is a new thing. Essentially the end of closed source is a huge deal and people haven’t realized the implications…
Can’t decompile an app that does all the real work in the cloud.
Nope but AI can perfectly re-create the API by observing the payloads being sent and received, and make an app with the same functionality.
This. I am so demoralised as a SWE who was trying to get out of working for a morally objectionable company by working on passion projects and selling them as apps. Guess I need to find something else… again.
Depends. Hand-written apps will still be more valuable than slopped ones as they’re far more trustworthy and less generic (like, literally), not to mention people being environmentally conscious about their choices. A good, trustworthy app that respects the user (and therefore omits e.g. privacy invasion) is still worth a few bucks to many.
I don’t mean this to be snippy but people don’t give a shit how or who wrote the code.
Most people will never know either way. If you download an app from an app store you don’t know what the code looks like.
Also software devs like to think they are clever and valuable because big tech has been pumping them up for a couple decades but the business doesn’t actually give a shit how a feature gets implemented only that it was and the customers value it.
LLMs are perfectly capable of writing correct code. The main issue with them is the pace of change which has been greatly accelerated and how it can eclipse the rate a dev can understand the change.
I know people like to claim that every thing they make is slop but that ignores that basically the entire industry is using it to varying amounts and are unlikely to stop going forward.
It’s a confirmation bias thing.
You are right no one cares how it is implemented, and on select contexts, right that LLMs can produce sufficient implementation.
However it isn’t generally the case that they can produce quality software. The bad news for a lot of developers is that by volume most software isn’t exactly great quality either, particularly in house enterprise software is already crap, so there is large area where differently crapi isn’t so bad.
I will say that people who want their software well supported are likely to be ill served by “vibed” solutions. It is really tricky to debug complex software that was vibed, whether human or GenAI. If it worked perfectly the first time around and/or the software in question is fairly disposable, well those may be fine.
Yeah it is great for POC. Basically something that you show as a demo and then throw it away.
I saw one mod for a Minecraft where author was honest and wrote upfront something like “please don’t report any bugs, this mod was vibe coded and I don’t have the skills to fix it”
I do care, i want to get work done, not waste my time with slop applications. All this talk about the adobe suit being cloned and in practice it is less usable than gimp and other open source projects out there, so why waste my time, with another slop marketing stunt?
Techbros always pretend the public doesn’t value efficiency and integration, and are willing to pay for it. If it wasn’t this way open source apps would have crushed it’s competition decades ago simply for being free.
And don’t get me started in how without proper support these slop apps will be dead faster than the grokopedia.
Guess I need to find something else… again.
Keep in mind that all of these projects cost a fuckton of money. This cannot go on forever.
You only need to slay the giants…
I think its over for us, and most other knowledge based jobs eventually. I have no idea where this is going.
If someone does that to an app you’re actively selling you’re well within your rights to C&D them.
Reverse engineering isn’t illegal. It’s how projects like Wine are possible.
Well, depends.
Software is subject to copyright. Yes you can implement the same APIs, but when you get into the visual presentation, things can get copyright related even if the code isn’t being ripped off.
If you decompile rather than clone, well then the code is copyrighted even if transformed into plausible source code.
Of course then there are patents…
The way I unterstand it, at least in European practice, the code itself is copyrighted, as in, the actual text, not the concept behing it. Decompiled source is not the same as original source, it goes through rounds of compiler optimisations and the process of reversing that includes a lot of guesswork. So, in practice, decompiling and working on the decompiled source was at least tolerated, probably because it would have been a grey area at worst.
That is explicitly prohibited by virtually all proprietary software license agreements.
Which makes it a breach of contract, but not illegal.
In terms of whether the ‘clean room’ approach is as critical in Europe or not, I can’t be sure. It might be more permissable for someone to use a decompile as a reference and also directly work on a replacement. However I’m pretty sure starting with a decompile of proprietary software as a direct codebase would run afoul of issues.
Otherwise, imagine you have an HEVC encoded rip of a 4K blu ray. You transcode it to AV1. The bytes are totally different, and even the resultant frames are likely not even pixel for pixel identical. I don’t think copyright law would deem that not a violation, regardless of jurisdiction.
Transcoding would not be a violation, but in order to rip it in the first place, you had to bypass technological restrictions built into the disc and the drive. Under section 1201 of the DMCA, the creation or sharing of software that can do thatis a felony punishable by half a million dollars and six months in prison for a first offense.
Calling decompilation the “end of closed-source” is way too hyperbolic.
Sir, there’s a reason nobody likes to see the sausage being made.
They claim it’s “clean room”, so no decompilation involved. I’m just waiting for the lawsuits to arrive, so we may learn how much of that is true. The big ones probably are already checking the code.
Companies were just dropping the entirety of their proprietary code base into chatbots to save money after firing their best developers. I bet that’s where they’re getting most of it.
I think that could only be really claimed if you know what training data the LLM was trained on. That will only matter if it ends up in court though and no one seems willing to fight that fight at the moment.
Had the same reaction with the Photoshop ai clone when se already have projects like gimp
People both here and on Reddit keep complaining about the ‘bad UI’ of GIMP compared to Photoshop. Which UI is laid out the same way as in Photoshop.
which is false, but more importantly the tools are entirely different. you can’t do the same thing, you have to find the “gimp way” of achieving the same result
I agree to an extent - a few tools are indeed different, but the majority (including the core ones that 95% of people use) work almost exactly the same. Levels, curves, crop, clone stamp, sharpening, move etc.
which is false
“Trust me bro, it’s completely different.”
Actual apps: tools on the left, layers on the right, the pic in the middle. The important menus are in the same places. Apparently Photoshop users lack pattern recognition.
There’s Photogimp
True, however iirc the tools panel layout can be adjusted in standard GIMP — maybe not to the width of one icon, and by default the panel is also used for the tools options. Afaiu there was more sense in Photogimp when GIMP had floating windows, those really were dark times.
My main issue with GIMP is that I can never memorize the location of the buttons for less-frequently-used tools, and the icons are not too recognizable. But that can be fixed with an icon theme, and perhaps with reordering the buttons if that’s indeed possible.
I disagree, their efforts don’t go unnoticed. Their recent no-AI claims prompted me to donate.
LibreOffice - the only office suite that handles tables correct, even when multiple users change the document 🥳
