No one in the history of discourse has cited being a free thinker as why they thought ill of North Korea.
While generally true that people rarely argue from the position of being a freethinker as a vocal core of their argument. What is not rare, however, is the habit of many calling anyone who points out that English sphere narratives about the DPRK are manufactured nonsense brainwashed. To label someone brainwashed on a given issue rests on the presupposition that you yourself are not. It assumes you operate as a free thinker. This posture persists even while their views align almost entirely with propaganda generated and circulated by the imperialist hegemon against an ideological enemy they remain at war with. Claiming intellectual immunity while repeating hegemonic talking points with little to no evidence (The core of the joke.).
Do any genuine DPRK defenders have sources or statistics to help me break my brainwashing or whatever because all I have ever seen are reasons to oppose and people saying yeah but what if that’s not actually true.
if your attention span has been ruined by social media like mine is; madeline pendelton does short form videos that touches on it and she backs it up with a linktree full of sources and north korea seems to be her favorite topic. she’s also on almost all of the social media platforms and you should be aware that her videos comment are mostly filled with hate from brainwashed people.
she also does a twich channel where she goes over the current news and explains the propaganda in it; i watch it everyday.
here’s the most recent video of hers that i shared: https://www.tiktok.com/@madeline_pendleton/video/7610963982198770975
Thanks for the link. The source doesn’t really pass the sniff test, though. Take, for example, the claim that North Koreans are permitted to leave the country.
From the Article 63 of this 2015 criminal law document:
A citizen who has committed an act of treason against the state, such as by betraying the State and escaping to another country or surrendering, defecting or giving over secrets, shall be sentenced to a term of reform through labour of more than 5 years. In particularly grave cases, he or she shall be sentenced to life-term of reform through labour or to the death penalty and confiscation of property.
This doesn’t sound like a law only applied to violent criminals.
Why do you say so? Who is this law applied to other than violent criminals?
“treason against the state, such as”:
- (1) by betraying the State and escaping to another country or
- (2) surrendering
- (3) defecting
- (4) giving over secrets
1 implies that escaping to another country is a betrayal of the state. 2 and 3 involve no violent criminal acts. 4 isn’t violent, although it is the only item on the list that might make sense.
Some introductory de-brainwashing links:
- Is north korea a totalitarian dictatorship? Are they all really required to get the same haircut? A short documentary.
- South Korea boosts reward for defectors to $860k USD.
- Are north korean defectors really paid to lie by the south? A short documentary.
- What is everyday life like? A conversation with a North Korean Citizen.
Thanks for the links. I’m curious if you see North Korea as an actual positive example of state governance or socialism, or if you simply mean to point out certain specific myths?
The haircut video is an interesting demonstration of how state-run media spreads falsehoods, but overall it’s really more of an indictment of America than a defense of North Korea. South Korea paying people makes sense, I never really gave defectors too much credence anyway. The interview is interesting but I wish it were longer and more in-depth.
Think of it this way
Everything in you’re seeing in Gaza today is what was done to North Korea once. Arguably to an even larger extent.
A society that has been subject to that level of violence and inhumanity can’t be expected to be exactly like colonial countries in Europe in terms of its social norms, without even considering cultural differences.
Despite all of that, North Korea has not just managed to survive, it’s maintained HDI that surpasses nearly every other under developed country. Remember that it is one of the most, if not the most diplomatically isolated and sanctioned country in the world.
Do you think a state run by tyrants and capitalism enabled fasicsts would do that?
The DPRK is a success story, they succeeded in defeating both the Japanese and US imperialists (despite the US killing 1/5 of their citizens), fought the US comprador government to a standstill (which still serves as a US military base and carries out attacks and propaganda against the DPRK), and made it through the incredibly hard period of the 90s (the arduous march) after the fall of the USSR.
Socialism can take on many forms, all of which can’t be divorced from the historical context in which they arose. Other comrades can give some deep dives into the DPRK’s governance system, which can show how it’s far more democratic than the capitalist dictatorship in the south.
We should all admire the DPRK for standing up to the US empire, and debunk the lies told about it first and foremost. Liberals tend to think its mordor or something, when in reality its a country where ppl go to work and live regular lives like any other.
Point taken that they overcame adversity and that there is propaganda against them. To be fair, that can be said to varying degrees about a lot of countries.
Everyone has reasons to do propaganda but if you’re mostly exposed to western media then it’s definitely a good idea to fact check everything they say about their geopolitical enemies, because they’re always gonna be slandered to hell and even in countries with actual problematic leadership the idea isn’t to uncritically defend them but just push back against narratives that will never serve the people in those countries regardless
Fair enough. The original meme seems to suggest, though, not just that people are subject to propaganda, but that North Korea is, in fact, good.
For absolute beginners to learning about Korea, I like Nodutdol’s US out of Korea toolkit. It gives you background on Korea, from the Joseon dynasty to Japanese colonialism to the split to today. For specifics on the DPRK I can offer some helpful resources, but without knowing what in particular you’re talking about I’d just have to dump books on you, and that’s not particularly effective. It’s better to either follow a course like Nodutdol’s, or to study specific areas of interest.
Thanks. Specifically, in broad terms the things that would concern me most about North Korea as a positive model of statehood, are
- Lack of democracy
- Universal conscription
- Nationalism
- Poverty
What countries do you think have democracy?
Because liberal / capitalist dictatorships are not democracies, despite marketing themselves as ones.
Democracy is not a binary, it can exist to varying degrees. A strong example of democracy would be Uruguay, where popular votes can block and propose legislation, which has been used to prevent privatization. A more radical example might be Federal Northern Syria.
Gotcha. I’ll address these in order.
Lack of Democracy in the DPRK?
The DPRK has a form of socialist democracy largely similar to the USSR and PRC, but adapted to the unique conditions of the DPRK’s existence and history. From Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance:
The DPRK’s electoral democracy relates primarily to the people’s assemblies, along with local state organs, assemblies, and committees. Every eligible citizen may stand for election, so much so that independent candidates are regularly elected to the people’s assemblies and may even be elected to be the speaker or chair. The history of the DPRK has many such examples. I think here of Ryu Mi Yong (1921–2016), who moved from south to north in 1986 so as to take up her role as chair of the Chondoist Chongu Party (The Party of the Young Friends of the Heavenly Way, formed in 1946). She was elected to the Supreme People’s Assembly and became a member of the Standing Committee (then called the Presidium). Other examples include Gang Ryang Uk, a Presbyterian minister who was a leader of the Korean Christian Federation (a Protestant organisation) and served as vice president of the DPRK from 1972 until his death in 1982, as well as Kim Chang Jun, who was an ordained Methodist minister and became vice-chair of the Supreme People’s Assembly (Ryu 2006, 673). Both Gang and Kim were buried at the Patriots’ Cemetery.
How do elections to all of the various bodies of governance work? Elections are universal and use secret ballots, and are—notably—direct. To my knowledge, the DPRK is the only socialist country that has implemented direct elections at all levels. Neither the Soviet Union (in its time) nor China have embraced a complete system of direct elections, preferring—and here I speak of China—to have direct elections at the lower levels of the people’s congresses, and indirect elections to the higher levels. As for candidates, it may initially seem as though the DPRK follows the Soviet Union’s approach in having a single candidate for each elected position. This is indeed the case for the final process of voting, but there is also a distinct difference: candidates are selected through a robust process in the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland. As mentioned earlier, the struggle against Japanese imperialism and liberation of the whole peninsula drew together many organisations, and it is these that came to form the later Democratic Front. The Front was formed on 25 July, 1949 (Kim Il Sung 1949), and today includes the three political parties, and a range of mass organisations from the unions, youth, women, children, agricultural workers, journalism, literature and arts, and Koreans in Japan (Chongryon). Notably, it also includes representation from the Korean Christian Federation (Protestant), Korean Catholic Federation, and the Korean Buddhist Federation. All of these mass organisations make up the Democratic Front, and it is this organisation that proposes candidates. In many respects, this is where the multi-candidate dimension of elections comes to the fore. Here candidates are nominated for consideration from all of the mass organisations represented. Their suitability and merit for the potential nomination is debated and discussed at many mass meetings, and only then is the final candidate nominated for elections to the SPA. Now we can see why candidates from the Chondoist movement, as well as from the Christian churches, have been and can be elected to the SPA and indeed the local assemblies.
To sum up the electoral process, we may see it in terms of a dialectical both-and: multi-candidate elections take place in the Democratic Front, which engages in extensive consideration of suitable candidates; single candidate elections take place for the people’s assemblies. It goes without saying that in a non-antagonistic system of class and group interaction, the criterion for election is merit and political suitability
As for the bodies of governance, there is a similar continuity and discontinuity compared with other socialist countries. Unlike the Soviet Union, there is a unicameral Supreme People’s Assembly, which is the highest authority in terms of laws, regulations, the constitution, and all leadership roles. The SPA is also responsible for the national economic plan, the country’s budget, and foreign policy directions (Han 2016, 47–48). At the same time, the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland has an analogous function to a second organ of governance. This is a uniquely Korean approach to the question of a second organ of governance. While not an organ of governance as such, it plays a direct role in electoral democracy (see above), as well as the all-important manifestation of consultative democracy (see below). A further reason for this unique role of the Democratic Front may be adduced: while the Soviet Union and China see the second body or organ as representative of all minority nationalities and relevant groups, the absence of minority nationalities in a much smaller Korea means that such a form of representation is not needed.
I highly recommend the book, it helps shed light on some often misunderstood mechanisms in socialist democracy, including the directly addressed fact that the DPRK’s voting process includes single candidate approval voting.
Universal Conscription
The DPRK is still at war, as is the ROK and US Empire. The ROK also has universal conscription. This is a strategic necessity for deterrence at the present moment, and as such cannot be compared to a country at peacetime.
Nationalism
The DPRK’s nationalism is from a socialist perspective, national unity against imperialism and colonialism. The DPRK is in fact extremely internationalist as well. The DPRK has played a similar role internationally as Cuba, supporting anti-imperialist movements around the world. From aiding the African National Congress by training millitants, to supporting Palestinian liberation, the DPRK has never been Korean supremacist. The Black Panther Party maintained good relations with the DPRK, visiting it and teaching Juche to Statesians.
Poverty
The DPRK is poor. It’s under brutal sanctions, and like Cuba, does more with what it has thanks to its socialist system than capitalist countries would be able to. Because of the policy of nuclear deterrence, and the socialist system, the DPRK has managed to recover from historic flooding and the dissolution of the USSR into a poor but socially oriented, rising economy. Pyongyang in particular has been booming with massive expansions, and the 20x10 initiative has steadily been patching up the problem of rural underdevelopment.
To top it off, famine is now far more under control than it was during the 90s, when weather disaster combined with the dissolution of the USSR and the DPRK’s hostile environment to agriculture resulted in tragedy. Now, however, this is far more under control:
Conclusion
The DPRK is incredibly misunderstood. It isn’t a secret paradise, but it isn’t Hell either. It’s real, existing socialism, and delivers results we can expect socialism to deliver in such harsh, hostile conditions. Their rise from being subject to genocide to a stable, functional society despite brutal sanctions is to be respected and studied, not opposed.
Thanks.
I’ll have to read more about Korean Nationalism. As to poverty, you make fair points. As to universal conscription, I object to it in all circumstances regardless of wartime vs peace, as it is literally slavery. Other countries doing it doesn’t make it better.
As to Democracy, I am confused by the claim
the DPRK is the only socialist country that has implemented direct elections at all levels
When the source later says
All of these mass organisations make up the Democratic Front…the potential nomination is debated and discussed at many mass meetings, and only then is the final candidate nominated for elections to the SPA.
I fail to see the “direct election” in this process. It seems like a committee that theoretically takes into consideration debate and opinion but which then makes a unilateral nomination, who runs unopposed. Am I missing something?
Again, universal conscription cannot be removed from its necessary context: the DPRK is under constant threat. It isn’t literally slavery, it’s a policy that has important context, and isn’t done for profit but to satisfy the justified need for security and deterrence.
As for direct democracy, the DPRK has approval based voting. Candidates that are selected run unopposed, on a “yes/no” basis. Elections are not treated like political theater, there’s a comprehensive candidate selection system in the Democratic Front, with direct elections from bottom to top at the approval level. I recommend reading more from the linked book, the snippet I showed is just a tiny portion.
It isn’t literally slavery
How would you define slavery? Do you see it as only applicable in the context of commodity production?
Candidates that are selected run unopposed, on a “yes/no” basis
I may look more into the book. Curious if you know of any data on how common it is for candidates to lose an election once nominated? I have to say, even the Yes/No voting is done properly, the lack of an open primary or similar seems to preclude the idea of “direct elections”.
Slavery is largely forced labor to achieve economic ends, universal conscription is similar to how people are forced to go to school in most societies, or how doctors and other educated fields are sent to rural and underdeveloped areas in socialist systems upon graduating. There isn’t a class of exploiters and exploited, it’s the proletariat organizing itself in self-defense during the passive phase of an active war. Calling it slavery equates it to slavery in the Statesian south, where slave owners brutally exploited a class of slaves. The reason I bring up other countries is to show that this isn’t simply a policy preference, but something decided upon because of its practical necessity in real, existing conditions.
As for stats on those who lose elections, I don’t have any. I wouldn’t imagine it would be a high number given that it’s essentially an approval round for candidates, rather than their first exposure.
How can you say North Korea is good? Don’t you know they have to push their trains to work? You even get executed if you have the same haircut or a different haircut than WPK’s General Secretary. They’re so evil that they’ll execute people with a 76mm cannon and then sew the mist back together and medically resurrect the person and re-execute them and then they’re forced to go back to work afterwards.
Park-posting is illegal in the DPRK, sir.
“If you believe The Official Story about everything that happens, then you’re not thinking, you’re repeating. If the only thing you question is the questioners, then you’re not an individual with your own mind, you are an enforcer of the status quo.” Caitlin Johnstone
You don’t even have to do anything but look at their own propaganda to realize something is up. the way they praise Kim jong un is creepy
In the cartoon squirrel and hedgehog they portray one of the characters being a child soldier as a good thing the overall message of the show is that you should always be willing to sacrifice yourself for your country (despite this cartoon being propaganda it’s pretty good give it a watch)
I don’t understand DPRK Stans.
The Kim family does have outsized influence, but the DPRK is not a hereditary monarchy. For example, the position of President, held by Kim Il-Sung, was abolished and split into multiple positions upon his death. This is why he is remembered as the “Eternal President.” As such, both Kim Jong-Il and Kim Jong-Un have held different positions. Both have held high positions, for example Kim Jong-Il had the title of General Secretary of the Worker’s Party of Korea, a position held by Kim Jong-Un presently. However, this is not the whole story.
The DPRK has a much more distributed level of power, and the Kim family is both widely supported due to its influence, and yet is not the undisputed top-dog, so to speak. What’s more, the Kim family is so venerated precisely because the legacy of Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il is lived memory, imagine if Lenin had survived and raised his children as successors. It would be no wonder that the soviets would have elected his children, but it would not be a monarchy either.
Overall, people support the DPRK in its struggle for similar reasons people support Cuba: they are socialist countries that have achieved remarkable results despite intense sanctions thanks to their systems. It has nothing to do with “stanning,” and everything to do with supporting their struggle for independence from the US Empire.
North korea is a great country, and anyone who thinks differently belongs in the gulag
You have been banned from [REDACTED]
Yeah, everybody in North Korea says it’s great!
Yes, it’s better for they health and those from their families to do so and to love their leader, same as in the US.
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lmao imagine thinking that being a racist sack of shit is sensible
You will repeat this about every Designated Enemy country from now until the US empire finally collapses, and the stories will only become more outlandish.
Cuba is making cyborg zombie soldiers. We must liberate them with bombs.
Brussels is kidnapping people and stitching them together into human centipedes in the name of communism. They must be stopped.
Trinidad and/or Tobago are using the department of war wifi to torrent video games without seeding, they must be turned to radioactive glass for their insolence.
Sensible is when you believe that the DPRK is Mordor, Russian people are orcs who don’t know what toilets are, and genocide is only bad when it’s the orange man doing it
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People support the DPRK in its struggle for similar reasons people support Cuba: they are socialist countries that have achieved remarkable results despite intense sanctions thanks to their systems. It isn’t “totalitarian,” such a term is meaningless to begin with, it’s a socialist state.
The reason Marxists don’t support Scandinavian social democracy is because it’s both capitalist and imperialist. Private ownership is the principal aspect of the Scandinavian countries, not socialism, and as such Scandinavian countries are neither democratic nor socialist. Instead, they plunder the global south to fund their safety nets while providing enormous profits to their ruling class.
Why can’t you people just vouch for Scandinavian democratic socialism? It’s clearly the only thing that’s working in this fucked world.
Probably because they fund their social democracy through pillaging the third world. Or the fact it does nothing to address the root issues of modern society (imperialism and the contradictions of capital). Among other issues.
Haha, sometimes I miss having the radlib blend of absolute conviction and absolute pigheaded ignorance. Have you ever been to Korea? Have you ever spoken to someone from the DPRK? Or do you “know” what you know about it in the same way you “know” what you think you know about every Designated Enemy country? Would you call Gaza an authoritarian Islamist shithole? Why or why not?
Lol name one place NK has invaded.
my government is evil and lies constantly but of course I believe everything they say about their enemies
I guess we’re not freethinkers like you.