You’re right, we are far from the point. At what step in the loot box/gambling process is money exchanged. Then tell me how gambling works. Then tell me if they are the same.
That is an appeal to authority. Every one is susceptible to a mistake. And I believe this one is. I think the court will rule in favor of Valve if they don’t dismiss it. The way the economy works inside of Steam is what insulates it from being gambling. NY is arguing that being able to redeem your wallet for a Deck and then selling that deck, introduces the cash component of gambling. Not only that, but third party sellers are brought up and that adds several other layers that will be harder to make the case for. In addition, they claim Valve knowingly doesn’t care about the third party sellers. That, in and of itself, is not Valve’s problem specifically. If people want to pay money for a cosmetic item, it’s no different than Pokémon. Again, an insulating layer. That is a far cry from an open and shut case, as you seem to think it to be.
Multiple lawyers would point out that introducing steps to acquire cash insulates it. Especially since one of those steps is selling an item. This economy that they are trying to build out is shaky at best. But that’s just like, my opinion man. Do you have any of your own thoughts regarding the case? Have you read the case documents and come to a conclusion for yourself? Or are you just reading an article and calling it a day?
Fuck it, I’ll bite.
I will give it a try though. What prevent developers from pulling from steam. The answer is nothing except for a loss in potential revenue since that is where (75%) the majority of PC software is sold. There is also nothing preventing you from shutting off the power to your house. This doesn’t suddenly make your power company not a monopoly.
How would there be loss in revenue if it were only available through stores which have better profit sharing? You think the people who want that game would not purchase it through a different store? That’s literally how Steam got started. The reason developers don’t is because they like Steam. I know this intimately.
Whether someone likes or dislikes a monopoly has no bearing on the monopoly. Just because you liked IE in Windows didn’t mean that MS didn’t leverage their monopoly in an attempt to make it the Internet standard.
That’s because Windows was unfairly competing by having Internet Explorer preinstalled. That was what that case was about. I know because one of my family members works in Business Law and has extensive knowledge of monopolies and their standing in court with 20yrs of court experience. Did you know that if the DoJ evaluates a “monopoly” and finds consumers actually just prefer that product and nobody cares to compete, they’ll leave it alone?
Also, the antitrust bit. Steam requires you to sell your product for the same price even if a competitor charges less of a cut. You are not allowed to sell it for less to increase the sales on another platform that charges less. This is anti-competitive and a clear sign of a monopoly.
That is not antitrust as the developer could choose not to sell on Steam and use their own launcher and selling service. It would be antitrust if they applied that to other games. E.g. if EGS sells a game, not owned by Epic, for less than what Steam offer and Steam took actions against games on Steam owned by Epic, that would be antitrust and monopolistic.
What would it take for that company to compete. They can’t and that is the point. Even after Epic has thrown billions at the issue they have been unable to move the needle. This makes me laugh at your previous question about building your own steam competitor from scratch. Clearly you could do it in your basement with no help when a multi-billion dollar company can’t manage it.
Epic has thrown billions at it because they haven’t done shit to improve their storefront or community. They don’t have hardly as many offerings or community support. Funny how Valve is able to manage a larger community just fine with fewer resources.
Please don’t talk to me about court when you can’t even agree to a basic fact. While I am not a lawyer I have studied monopoly laws and cases for years. That is why it is crystal clear that Steam is a monopoly.
Ha! I guess my family member who’s gonna go to court tomorrow, was wrong about everything. Because I’ve been sending him our conversation. It is not as crystal as you believe.
Your statement about no one competing because they don’t want to is false, but if it were true that would definitely make Steam a natural monopoly which I alluded to earlier.
It’s still not a natural monopoly, because of other competitors in the same market space. This definition of monopoly is very difficult to define. Should Valve have to apologize for developers not offering their games on other platforms? Developers can use any storefront they want, but they mostly only use Steam, I wonder why? The option is there, consumers are very well aware of the options, yet they still choose Steam.
Does steam prevent you from downloading and using another marketplace. No, but Windows never prevented you from installing another browser either. Clearly you are grasping here and I think studying some monopoly cases could help you.
No, IE came preinstalled. That’s what that issue was. Stop acting like Windows gained market share fairly, as Steam has.
Keep in mind the US government, in particular, has given up on enforcing monopolies in the digital space as seen by their refusal to hold Google accountable for their many monopolistic practices. So don’t worry, me calling Steam a monopoly or you accepting this reality isn’t going to change shit.
The current climate of the DoJ, as well as, the past three to four decades of the DoJ, is far too intricate and complex to address and relate to Steam. Why you do that? So silly.
You questions asking what would happen if Steam was broken up are missing the point. There are numerous policies that could be passed to ensure competition or just regulate the rights of consumers and publishers. I would recommend that Steam’s anti-competitive policies be eliminated.
So, with your suggestion developers can under bid Steam however much they want? Congratulations, you just caused Steam to give away the game for free. They can do it. They have the market share to sustain the loss. You’ve improved nothing and demonstrated the knowledge you lack in part.
To answer your final question, because of Steams dominant market presence they keep prices high (despite their great sales) and take a disproportionally unfair cut for the work they do. This actively harms customers through lack of competition and anti-competitive practices.
They take 30% which is not unheard of in the mobile world. You can argue on whether a 70% cut for devs is enough, or not. I think it’s fine for the amount of service Valve has provided the community and developers.
Let me put it this way. If you poured you life into a indie game project and made a million in sales, do you feel a 300k cut is fair? Clearly you would feel that is way too much and it is for a digital marketplace.
You absolute donkey. It’s 70% for the developer and 30% for Valve. Not only that, there are different tiers going up to 80/20. You dolt. You fool. It’s finished.
Okay, So what prevents developers from pulling their games from Steam? Over 100,000 titles available on Steam vs. 4,000+ titles on EGS , which has better revenue sharing (12%). Surely, they dislike this monopolistic platform. So, why haven’t they at least offered their games elsewhere?
You still haven’t answered my question. If a Steam equivalent was released today. Had all the same features of Steam. But had better revenue sharing and even an exclusive feature that takes it over the top. Would that product be able to compete? That’s one of the questions that will be asked in court soon.
Another one could be, more directly related to monopolistic practices, does Steam take measures to prevent someone from downloading another marketplace and using it instead? The only discipline Valve could receive for being a “monopoly” would be is if the government wants to apply a windfall tax on their profits. Which has yet to happen.
Nobody is even trying to compete with Steam, cause no one wants to. So, what do you recommend happen? The entire Steam team gets broken up and has to develop new marketplaces? How does that work with a flat structure company like Valve? How would the employees, who are very happy feel? The consumers?
These are some of the questions one must answer when dealing with monopolies. Monopoly laws are there to protect the consumer. Therefore, the last question I will posit is this: What is Steam doing that is actively harming the industry and consumers?
You’re right, I just gave you my personal experiences about parenting children. I even brought up my brother in recovery, distinctly because you brought up addicts. I still stand by it being a parental issue. Don’t have kids if you don’t want that responsibility. This kind of argument has the same vibes as, “we need age verification on websites”. No, we don’t. Parents need to be better. I’m a millennial parent and I know how the internet works. I also know that every app nowadays has parental controls built in. Moreso, I can specifically block things on the router. The tools are there. Just be a parent. How many children do you have?
Market Share =/= monopoly. Answer this, what prevents a person, such as yourself, designing and coding a marketplace that meets the feature request of current Steam users?
Damn, got me. I didn’t realize Steam was the only place to buy games and they’re using their market share to inflate prices and gouge customers. You’re so right. That’s what monopolies do. Specifically, it’s when one business owns the sole source of a good. PC gaming is an oligopoly and the other businesses in the oligopoly are mad Valve is doing it better. There is nothing stopping anybody else offering a better deal with the features customers want from Steam.
Ugh, fine. The lawsuit is gonna bust because there’s too many steps to exchange the wallet into cash. Most notably, selling the Deck. So, there is no real gambling danger. Those extra steps are what keeps it removed from being considered gambling legally. There, you happy?
Yes, salaries whatever. Who gives a shit about salaries when there are stocks available for employees. Employees get dividends from those stocks.
If there was $17B in revenue, and just $1B of that went through dividends, that means $500M is going to the employees. Because Gabe owns half, because he founded the company. Depending on how many shares someone has, which is most likely tied to how long you’ve been at the company, you rake in money. I know, cause I worked for a large corporation that did that same thing. My buddy who’s still there is pulling $30k/year alone on that. Granted, that company has a much lower revenue:employee ratio. Valve is at the top of this category. So yeah, people who invest time and work into Valve make bank. As they should.
Holy fuck, didn’t realize so many kids were buying and selling steam decks. Damn, got me. I admit defeat. Later, friend.
That is a fair point. However, I must ask, what is the different between what Valve is doing with loot boxes v. every single trading card game out there. MTG, Pokémon, Yu-Gi-Oh, or Disney’s Lorcana? You are purchasing an item that has items in it that are random. The only reason they have value is because people have the option to just buy skin they want on Valve’s marketplace. Just like people have the option to buy a specific Pokémon card from a third party.
The other thing that Valve has done is, there’s no inherent value to the item. You can sell items for Steam Wallet funds, to then use in the marketplace. So, to me it seems, it’s really easy to set up a Steam account to not be allowed to purchase items. Which would include adding money to a Steam wallet for the marketplace. So, no this is not a “think of the children” issue. It’s yet again, another people are bad parents and can’t be bothered to use parental controls on their children’s electronics. Or take steps to prevent them from spending real money. Or take steps to prevent them from playing too much.
I could not give a shit. I am a parent of two and no, you cannot watch them every second. But you can watch your bank accounts. You can watch your child play. You can watch your child’s behavior change if they start getting really into gambling.
I had an older child I kinda took care of, who thinks of me as a father figure; he has none. He called me one night cause he was 16 and drunk and high and didn’t want to drive home. He said, "I called you, because you always said to call you if this happened. I’m so sorry“. I picked him up and helped his hangover the next morning and we had a long talk. That kid is on the ocean sending underwater robots to explore as an electrical engineer. Cause he liked that I did that. EE, not the water stuff lol.
Parents are responsible for their children and children have to learn responsibility for their actions. And that is a lesson that you have to teach your children. The best way is through learning. I’ve watched my mom raise an addict, so don’t you fucking dare try to appeal to me. She was the perfect mom. He just got in with the wrong crowd and went downhill. He’s sober now, but it was rough growing up. But she put in a hell of a lot of work into him.
I tell you that, because I’m not here to say we should ban public schools, because that’s where my brother tried heroin. I’m not here to say we should fund private schools with taxpayer money, because there are drugs in our schools. It’s a fucking bad stroke of luck. Fire and damnnation, this got me hot. Don’t fall off your pedestal as you get on your high horse.
Mate, I did not know parents were not responsible for their own children. That is on me. I’m glad to hear all the work I’ve done on my network and computers to make them safe for my children was a moot point.
Adults like gambling. It’s not Valve’s fault that children are using it cause their parents are ignorant of their own child.
As far as the DRM stuff goes, that’s all based on the publisher. And it’s not that difficult to bypass. Valve has shown time and time again, that they are a business for their customers. Their customers like a solid platform that works and is easy to use and has a community.
Let’s take a look a Linux real quick. If it wasn’t for Valve, Linux gaming wouldn’t be what it is today. They did that and gave it to the community. I’m sorry other platforms can’t be bothered to put in that kind of effort. If you wanna play with the big dogs, you gotta get off the porch. And Ubisoft wants to take the easy way out through a lawsuit. They need to do better with their storefront. Offer good exclusives. Try to actually appeal to your customers.
I still remember when everybody bitched about Steam when half-life 2 came out. It was kinda bad, and people were mad about it. But Valve was just ahead of the curve. It allowed them to publish updates, patches, anti-cheating. And soon enough, the community grew to love it. It just worked. If something broke in your game, it was probably fixed in a week if it was a Valve game. It gave so much to PC players.
You know, this reminds me of a little story. There was a small family owned supermarket. They wanted to expand. What better way to do that than offer better prices than your competitors? And what better way to prevent competitors than opening up that store in a small city. So, that’s what they did. The government let them. And then that store drove local business out. That allowed them to raise prices and continue that business model until they were the largest employer in America.
This seems to me, that Ubisoft wants to play, but has nothing unique to offer other than their games. The store front is terrible. There’s no community. And there’s always issues when I’m trying to play with friends. Never any issues on Steam. I don’t know y’all, this just seems stupid. I hate Ubisoft though.
I’m inclined a little to agree with you, but it’s not like he made his money because Gabe refused to be run by anyone. He pays his employees really well. My dad’s friend still is working at Valve after going there 20 some odd years ago. He rakes in money like no ones business. But they are all benefitting from the work they have done.
Secondly, nobody knows how charitable he is in his private life. The fact that he’s so private about it, inclines me to believe he’s probably a decent guy, who just doesn’t like the spotlight. He may be a billionaire, but how many billionaires have their employees love them like at Valve?
Lastly, most of his money is tied up in shares of the company, as he is 50%+ owner. He may use that to leverage cash loans, but he’s also just smart. He doesn’t really do that all that much, except when he’s buying his research yachts. And those shares are only accessible by the workers, as it’s a private company. Why? Because the money belongs to the laborers who produce the goods.
Now, I’m willing to change my view if there’s ever a situation in which Gabe Newall is intentionally trying to avoid paying taxes, but that hasn’t happened yet.
Bezos, Musk, Gates, Trump, Zuckerburg, Page, Brin, Ellison, Dell, Huang, the Waltons, Blomberg, Thiel. There’s so many worse people out there. I do agree wealth is bad, but what the aforementioned are doing is significantly worse.
Hell yeah, I knew Magnum ran Deb
“It was a-a bad problem” dire was right there, dude.
If it’s gambling, loot boxes should be items of value, redeemable for cash, correct? And Valve should be the one providing that cash, as they are the child casino, correct?
The fact that you aren’t answering is an answer in and of itself. You can reduce yourself to insults, but it only harms your arguement.
It is gambling, but only as much as Pokémon and Disney’s Lorcana. And that’s perfectly legal. You would need to go after those practices too. But I think you’d find a hard time with that. You know why? Cause it was dismissed in 1999 in New York v Nintendo of America. Gotta change the law for what you want, friend.