Context: https://lem.lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/45960248
Image created by @edie@lemmy.encryptionin.space
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I think it has nothing to do with the reasons they give, they just want to push western narratives of “righteousness”
I’ve been to political rooms in blahaj before and the discussed politics always boil down to anti-conservatism and anti-russian/chinese imperialism,
US imperialism? You’ll be called a tankie and told to stop acting like one to fit in
Israel genocide? You’re regressing the progressiveness of empowering jews, stop being overly antisemitic and using tankie sources
Some political news africa? Turn it about weather or not they support LGBTQ rights yet
Riots in south america? Their governments are oppressing them, also stop using tankie sources
There’s no way they can be this biased by coincidence, i’m not a tankie and i didn’t believe it at first but it’s true, Tankie do carry the burden of always being right!
I mean they just ban everyone who can critically read the media and understand basic geopolitics. Of course the remainder will be imperial core national chauvinists, that’s the default in their countries.
the people I talk to in blahaj, always call out USA’s and isreali imperalism
It’s spurned by liberal admins and mods usually. They can’t actually argue against us so they put their cognitive dissonance into an unhealthy place of self-soothing.
This actually isn’t unique to Lemmy at all it is the default reaction of committed liberals and liberals with thin skin. But when someone feels ownership of a place and like they’re losing legitimacy and control they can lash out.
It’s also important to understand that most people online discussing politics in these forums know basically nothing. They don’t read. They can’t critically engage with media. They don’t question their own biases when presented with people from other cultures. They certainly don’t actually do anything irl that would teach them visceral lessons. Trying to build an organization (not a career in a non-profit), a party, or even just feeding people. They might as well be 10 year olds for all the information contained in their political opinions. But they feel extremely entitled to their positions and wrap it up in their identities. If they are contradicted they feel personally attacked. If they think something despite having never investigated it, they announce it proudly with confidence and bully those who disagree. In short, humility runs counter to their socialization.
Finally, they’re used to punching right, or at least most of them are, and their rhetoric breaks down when they are instead forced to punch left. So they just start namecalling instead, banning, or just trolling, as it allows their egos to escape without much damage.
Luckily, we are looking at an echo chamber of people who automatically self-isolate and can’t organize anything. In the real world conversations are faster and more productive and building things and teaching is much easier, even with an audience that isn’t entirely friendly. Irl people usually can’t get away with acting like such babies.
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If you want a point of view that isn’t in your bubble, what many people call “tankies” are in fact campists. By that I mean they commonly engage in authoritarian apologia for anyone purportedly “against the west”.
Iranian government brutalizing its own people? Butwutaboutdawest. Russia waging an imperialist war to absorb a neighbour? Butwutaboutnato. China threatening it’s neighbours? Butwutaboutdawest.
Nothing is ever their fault, any atrocity committed is either a false flag or misinformation because the only thing that matters is the team on the shirt, not any actual actions.
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
How many days are they into the 3 day operation?
Hey that’s not a number, how many days are they into the 3 day operation? And yes, I don’t like when people get attacked by a bigger stick. I’m sure you guys are more consistent. Keep LARPing as communist revolutionaries!
Just an FYI but Ukraine wants to be the Greater Israel of Europe. Struck an Iranian ship, is great friends with Netanyahu, has vans that kidnap Ukranian citizens to be sent to the meat grinder. ( https://busification.org/ )
You’re pro-Palestine but also pro-Ukraine? So anti war-ism but supports western’s interests that also support genocide.
FYI, Russia never actually said anything about it being a “3 day operation”. That’s fake news that caught on.
They’ll win in Ukraine any day now, just a few more losses and they’ll have it! Ukraine is losing, that’s why they’re gaining ground and Russia has more casualties.
Russia is winning, 2+2=5
Lol, I’ve been hearing since mid 2022 about how Russia was down to fighting with sticks and will lose any day now.
Ukraine is winning, 2+2=5
Sure bud, use whatever you need to tell yourself. Go join the war effort since you wanna shoot Putin so badly. You won’t.
What the fuck are you talking about
Russia has consistently been taking more ground. The idea that Russia is losing because they likely have more total casualties while on the offensive does not mean Ukraine is winning for Ukraine to win the war must become unsustainable for Russia. To the contrary, it seems the Ukrainian front line is slowly eroding as Russia takes key defensive positions, and Ukraine is slowly losing the ability to replace lost or AWOL troops.
Cringe memes aside, anyone who can say with a straight face that poor little Putin was forced into this war against his will has obviously not been listening to the words coming out of his mouth.
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This reads extremely like a story someone tells themselves in order to avoid having to engage with what other people actually think. Very “of course these natives aren’t trying to tell me anything important, they’re just mindless Bad Guy savages and i can probably just guess whatever primitive bullshit they’re thinking” vibes.
Also, lol, dude, you are mindlessly repeating liberal cope about communists who oppose western warmongering while wearing the name and image of a guy who was famously slandered as a communist and imprisoned by liberals for opposing western warmongering. Very free thinking and anti-authoritarian of you to spontaneously recreate the social attitude of 1917.
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
I think the most common position I’ve seen on these “tankie” spaces is:
I mean the current state of Russia is the consequence of the illegal dissolution of the Soviet Union against the will of the people after all.
I mean the current state of Russia is the consequence of the illegal dissolution of the Soviet Union against the will of the people after all.
I think that liberals see this as the term that the other guy used: “Butwutaboutdawest”
Iranian government brutalizing its own people? Butwutaboutdawest.
That seems like a reasonable question to ask in order to not blindly adopt national chauvinists views. Shouldn’t you put developments in context to avoid getting swept up in a propaganda push?
Is this the “authoritarian apologia” you mentioned? Maybe you could give a citation of someone doing it so we can judge if they are being unreasonable.
Russia waging an imperialist war to absorb a neighbour? Butwutaboutnato.
Is it imperialist? Russia is doing this to expand profit seeking for its national-level monopolies or otherwise export capital? If so they are doing a bad job. Or maybe you don’t know what imperialism is in this context.
Regarding NATO, yes understanding its purpose and it’s member activities in the lead up to Russia invading Ukraine is actually a basic necessity for grasping why it happened at all and why it isn’t just revanchism or “imperialism”. Can you tell me what happened re: the Minsk agreements and why that is relevant? What were their contents?
China threatening it’s neighbours? Butwutaboutdawest.
I honestly don’t know what this is even about. Maybe Japan remilitarizing? It’s not hard to see why that would be concerning.
Nothing is ever their fault, any atrocity committed is either a false flag or misinformation because the only thing that matters is the team on the shirt, not any actual actions.
I have never seen someone saying anything remotely in the vein you are referencing that doesn’t also have criticism for those nations.
Perhaps you could give an example.
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
One would have to start with an understanding of imperialism.
Shouldn’t you put developments in context to avoid getting swept up in a propaganda push?
That’s reasonable. I personally knew a lady who was beaten, imprisoned and starved for a week by the morality police for forgetting her hijab at home though. I struggle to think of a context that would justify that. This was many years ago though, as I understand it the morality police and their systematic human rights abuses were largely unofficially abolished in 2023 after mass protests.
The new wave of protests from this year were largely about inflation and cost of living, as far as I understand. You don’t get to thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands of injuries via effective crowd management.
Is it imperialist? Russia is doing this to expand profit seeking for its national-level monopolies or otherwise export capital? If so they are doing a bad job.
In order: yes, yes, yes, and also yes.
My opinion is that the primary motive of the original full-scale war, which they honestly thought they could get done in 3 days, was primarily to expand the workforce due to their crippled demographics, while simultaneously scoring an easy propaganda win domestically, giving a black eye to the US and EU, and get a hold of the rare earth minerals which were being prospected in eastern Ukraine at the time. It also didn’t hurt that before they bombed it, the area was relatively industrialized. Due to the incompetence of authoritarians in general and their inability to admit defeat (just look at the US in Iran today if you want a 2nd example), they are forced to keep going to save face no matter how pointless it is and how many people die.
In terms of motivation for Russia to continue their war long past the point of sunk costs, it probably also doesn’t help that because they’re fully in a war economy now, the end of the war will cause their economy to crash.
As a capstone to this: you don’t get a pass on imperialism just because you’re bad at it. If that was the case, Mussolini did nothing wrong.
I honestly don’t know what this is even about. Maybe Japan remilitarizing?
Take your pick. Saber rattling with Taiwan, encroaching on the Phillipine’s maritime waters, skirmishing with India and Pakistan on their border, and more.
I have never seen someone saying anything remotely in the vein you are referencing
I see every other day here references here to Ukrainian Nazis, Russian self-defense, etc. As an Eastern European who’s heard second-hand from refugees what’s going on in detail, I hope you can understand why that’d piss me off a little. So afraid of falling for US propaganda so they’re gobbling up Russian propaganda instead.
That’s reasonable. I personally knew a lady who was beaten, imprisoned and starved for a week by the morality police for forgetting her hijab at home though. I struggle to think of a context that would justify that.
Who said you have to justify it? Can you give a link and quote of the person who tried to make you?
This was many years ago though, as I understand it the morality police and their systematic human rights abuses were largely unofficially abolished in 2023 after mass protests.
Human rights discourse is fraught and almost always extremely national chauvinist, racist. But yes there has been a moderation.
The new wave of protests from this year were largely about inflation and cost of living, as far as I understand. You don’t get to thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands of injuries via effective crowd management.
I’m not sure what this means.
In order: yes, yes, yes, and also yes.
Then you are wrong.
My opinion is that the primary motive of the original war, which they honestly thought they could get done in 3 days, was primarily to expand the workforce due to their crippled demographics
Well yes not ending the war after that 3 days, which was an option for Ukraine but rejected by their masters, would have been the way for Ukraine to not be destroyed as a country.
Unfortunately for Ukrainians, they have been sacrificed and their country ostensibly sold on loan. Russia did indeed hope they would choose to not do that.
But who knows what you mean by “crippled demographics”, the demos were not particularly different in Donbas. Also why ignore the history leading up to it.
while simultaneously scoring an easy propaganda win domestically, giving a black eye to the US and EU, and get a hold of the rare earth minerals which were being prospected in eastern Ukraine at the time.
Actually none if that is imperialism except maybe the rare earths but that’s really not an inherently compelling argument on its own because all land has value, but not all invasions or annexations are imperialist. Russia was not exactly hurting due to lack of rare earths. They were hurting from being slowly isolated from European markets and from a war zone on their border. 8 years of neo-Nazis shelling ethnic Russians in Donbas after Euromaiden and you’re speculating it was rare earths?
It also didn’t hurt that before they bombed it, the area was relatively industrialized. Due to the incompetence of authoritarians in general and their inability to admit defeat (just look at the US in Iran today if you want a 2nd example), they are forced to keep going to save face no matter how pointless it is and how many people die.
Material forces constrain what “authoritarians” can do in this way, this is naive fantasy speak about how nation states operate. In reality, the refusal to do Minsk III is what set the stage, it is a recognition that a hard break was sought by Ukraine’s masters and no negotiation would be forthcoming that even had the pretense of another agreement to fail to meet the conditions of. The destruction of the Nord Stream pipeline is a good example of the break being sought. With Ukraine off the table for a political negotiation, that left only the establishment of an ongoing material dynamic: demilitarization by force, annexation of Donbas, surviving a new economic status quo.
Speaking of the new economic status quo, Russia fared well despite the various financial nuclear options leveraged against them. This was probably a surprise to their neoliberal bankers, but the base reality of the situation made sustaining it appealing.
Take your pick. Saber rattling with Taiwan,
That is stoked by the West and there are no new developments on that front that aren’t the US trying to escalate via moving yet more military assets there. Or China moving ships across waters right in between the mainland and the island slightly more often or with a slightly different exercise.
You call this making threats?
encroaching on the Phillipine’s maritime waters
I guess if we are being vague about what encroaching is okay. Building up and claiming various contiguous waters in the south china sea that would have otherwise been international waters and continuing to dispute long-disputed claims to some islands.
You call this making threats?
skirmishing with India and Pakistan on their border
Name them and let’s see what the big deal is. PS, is it threatening.
I see every other day here references here to Ukrainian Nazis, Russian self-defense, etc.
So what? This doesn’t respond to what I said at all.
As an Eastern European who’s heard second-hand from refugees what’s going on in detail, I hope you can understand why that’d piss me off a little.
I don’t care what pisses you off.
PS you skipped over 75% of what I said.
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Ah, I thought so. Honestly don’t really have the time and energy to go back and forth with these massive walls of text, so I’ll just say that you’ve fallen hook line and sinker for Russian propaganda.
Ah yes it’s my fault that you have no response. Just throw in a thought-terminating cliché.
Ukrainian Nazis exist, just like there are Nazis in literally every country on the planet. They weren’t in control of anything, nor were they in any way in control of the government.
See how you are just going on and on about things I didn’t say rather than responding to what I did say?
Though Ukrainian neo-Nazis absolutely were in control of exactly what I referenced: running front-line militias that shelled Donbas. This was widely reported until 2022 when Western media needed to push that to the side.
The “ethnic Russians” were primarily Russian army troops out of uniform.
No the ethnic Russians I am referring to are about half of the people who lived and live in Donbas. Civilian population centers were shelled.
There’s piles and piles of evidence about this.
No there aren’t.
The low intensity war between Russia and Ukraine was to destabilize Ukraine to attempt to force it back into Russia’s sphere of influence against the will of the populace.
Historical revisionism that ignores Euromaidan and the grassroots response in Eastern Ukraine to the coups and anti-ethnic Russian, anti-left campaigns that followed. Do you think it was the Russians that locked union organizers in a building and set it on fire?
If that isn’t imperialist, I don’t know what is.
Yes, exactly, you don’t know what imperialism is.
I don’t know why I’m writing all this out, tbh. You’ve drunk the Kool aid.
Self-soothing to help rationalize why you have no actual response to what I’ve said.
Anything “an enemy of the west” says is believed uncritically, no actual thinking, just regurgitation.
Oh? What specific claims by “an enemy of the west” have I believed uncritically?
Have a wonderful day regardless, and I honestly hope you’re doing well.
Uh-huh
Ah, I thought so. Honestly don’t really have the time and energy to go back and forth with these massive walls of text, so I’ll just say that you’ve fallen hook line and sinker for Russian propaganda.
Go back to Reddit
You do know that Israel has literally admitted to having mossad agents at street level during these protests??
God forbid somebody can be against US imperialism and against Russian imperialism simultaneously, that’s much too nuanced.
Mmm yes, very nice. Now let’s see your opinions on NATO, the EU and the Iranian government.
NATO: only time it’s ever been triggered was for the US “war on terror”. A smaller more local NATO that ACTUALLY focuses purely on regional defence rather than some regional defence, some helping US imperialism in the middle east would be much better.
EU: Very imperfect, but the best chance we’ve got to stand up and support ourselves without being beholden to either Russia or the US. If we want real autonomy, we’ve got to work together regionally. Individual European countries stand no chance solo on the world stage.
Iranian government: Rightfully paranoid, but that paranoia seeps into every aspect of it’s interaction with it’s population. I do wish they could somehow modify their government to allow more individual liberties, clamp down on human rights abuses while keeping the aspects of it that have allowed it to resist the US. I don’t know how that might look, but it’s definitely not happening now that the US have gone “hold my beer” and committed war crimes that make what Iran did look trivial by comparison. The population definitely can’t push for reforms when in an active shooting war where infrastructure that civilians rely on is being deleted.
Ok so
eu: -Perfect but just short of it -The imperfections overshadowed by importance -Importance comes from value of european lives -Threatened by Russia and the US -Once again important due to needed unity
Iran: -Scared and worried -Untrust worthy of governing it’s people -I care about iranians rights a lot -They deserve to have their government modified -Modifications should not harm resistance to US -We need to plan for that change in government -The US warcrimes against iran are bad but we should focus on how much worst than Iranian government’s they are -The issue with the warcrimes is that they are getting in the way of resisting their government
Are you racist? I feel like you’re not judging these two groups of people equally
Can you also do this for US and Israel as well, i think comparing how lenient you’ll be with them when they’re not being massacred like cattle vs how rigid and cold you are with Iranians while they are is going to say so much
Can you please point to where I said I was the arbiter of what that change would look like or what the yardistick should be?
The equivalence here which is not broken imho, and if broken I need to change my POV, is local autonomy for both EU citizens and Iranians are of prime importance. Both EU citizens and Iranians deserve to control their own respective governments, free of outside influence. Both EU & Iranian people deserve to be in charge of their own day to day lives, without an imposition of any particular religious behavior or set of norms.
The issue that you wouldn’t worry about regime change in any country in the EU if that country was being bombed by two aggressors
The fact you care so little about the aggression to the point you’d rather focus or keep bringing up issues that no Iranian in their right mind would prioritize right now because death, killing, missiles, no water or electricity, currency devalued, shows how little you care about that suffering
You’d never bring up regime change or emissions or drug trafficking for any EU country if they were being hit by more than 2000 missiles
you are insane at best and racist at worst, i’m sorry but you have to reflect here or just actually watch how united everyone in Iran is for their government right now
Literaly 19684 😔
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i thought they were anarchists
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Not for long after the Troika liberates them
Anarchists are tankies.
Been gone for a while, did my peoples go tankie?
It’s a shifting target. Tankie has always been a pejorative for those supportive of socialist states, now this has broadened from “support” to “doesn’t fully condemn.”
Ohhhh, I remember you
Can’t say I remember you, sorry 😅
Well that’s just fine, you’re way less forgettable then I anyhow, practically infamous here. We have seen eachother in debates before, good old fashion bout’s of infighting. lol
Haha, fair. I will say, the idea that I’m “infamous” has always been funny to me. A few people really hate me, while most tend to be on good terms. It generally follows the chart in the meme, dbzer0 is okay with me, the 3 more communist instances tend to like me, while those on the opposite side of the iron curtain, so to speak, have a few people that despise me.
Not really but according to the nazi bars everyone left of Kissinger is one.
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We know that some people eventually work past their “fuck tankies” stage because we did. Most of us used to believe the same things and for the same reasons, because we grew up under largely the same conditions.
Actually I was never this insufferable.
Yup
Tankie is a disgruntled state of mind/interaction. A basic incompatibility.
Tankie is a thought-terminating cliché by liberals that can’t handle losing an argument and don’t know how else to punch left.
Tankie is just a pejorative for those who support existing socialist states.
I have supported socialist states, said positive things about Vietnam and China on countless occasions and never been called a Tankie.
So I think there is a discussion and attitude element to it.
Depends on the audience, more than anything. Most socialists aren’t going to waste time calling each other a tankie.
So I think there is a discussion and attitude element to it.
The same comment can be interpreted differently based on the author instance by liberals.
Do the same type of comment with an account on .ml and see if people will call you tankie or not.
Hermeneutics in action. Thanks, Losurdo!
What Losurdo wrote related to that? I never read anything from him(I suck at reading important shit).
It’s a common throughline in his writing, usually related to how we pervieve information based on our perception of the source. If the US says a country is evil, leftists might be suspicious of this claim and sometimes assume the opposite (to an extent), while conservatives would happily go along with it.
said positive things about Vietnam and China on countless occasions
You’re a tankie.
Vroom vroom.
It is impossible for liberal servers to not do this every few months.
For them, legitimacy comes from proximity to their own media, educational institutions, state-produced propaganda, and power structures. Anything that challenges their white / western supremacist outlook gets demonized with “tankie” or “communist infiltration sapping our precious bodily fluids”.
They have no culture of their own
Certified commie over here, salute to kittenzrulz123 o7
o7
💯🫡❤️
“The evil tankies have taken over Lemmy and our instances are next”
The evil tankies: “Who even are you”
Funny how they all talk like 4chan chuds
Political compass in shambles
Another case of “anyone slightly more left wing than me is a tankie, anyone slightly more right wing is a fascist” while we all boil in the same real-life-gray-area soup
I just wanna grill for god’s sake!
Shut up tankie
Context: https://lem.lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/45960248
Image created by @edie@lemmy.encryptionin.space
they gotta do SOMETHING now that their asset – tesseract – has been exposed. lol
blahaj was on the tesseract blocklist as well though. We even get mentioned alongside dbzer0 and quokk.au in the “bad instances that advocate/condone violence” list in patrick’s rant.
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some turbolib made a Lemmy client that had a hardcoded blacklist of users and instances they considered to be communists
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ah gotcha, and I’ve made the list myself apparently
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Hell yes, our red tanks will advance, and we’ll take the whole world!
Taking the original image way literally for a sec, why did nobody question someone from US deciding if Cambodia should be communist or not? Shouldn’t Cambodians draw that line?
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-3706966075/view
Australian election thingy actually.
Ok that actually makes more sense lmao. I appreciate the fact-check.
She made the original meme, haha.
Why do they all wanna be aviator glasses horseshoe baldness pocket polo glass of whiskey Cold War dads so badly?
wait, why did we get lumped in with the communists?
Lemmylibs think you guys are secret tankies because db0 and unruffled didnt support kamala for president
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The tankie caricature is to anti-imperialists what the hippie caricature was to anti-war activists
You didnt, only china is considered communist in the original. You’re on the forefront of the communist aggression, as seen with the arrows, because some parts of the fediverse considers you to be/going tankie, and because the user that was the starting domino for this was a db0 user.
Ill never understand why brainlets try to call /0 tankie given how much squabbling and total idealogical disagreement exists between it and the 3 pretty tankie instances.
You’re left of Hilary sadly you’re a tankie. I’m sorry.
Do I at least get a free T72?
No… You need to work as bot for 1 year and send an application form directly to Putin.
Tankie is a gradually shifting pejorative for anyone that defends existing socialist states. Dbzer0 straddles the line between tankie/non-tankie because the average stance is less a defense of existing socialism and more towards skepticism towards allegations against existing socialism, which then depends on who is hurling the pejorative.
At this point tankie just means anyone who acknowledges there is nuance to historical and/or modern socialist states. You don’t even have to support or defend them to earn the pejorative, you get it just for saying that maybe the CIA lied about some things.
Edit: after re-reading your comment I realize I am just repeating what you said.
Yep! You’ve got it. I think it mostly depends on the position of the one hurling the pejorative, anarchists that use it tend to mean MLs and others that support socialist states on principle, while liberals cast a wider net for anyone that doesn’t fully buy the CIA narrative, which includes some liberals and many anarchists.
Honestly most anarchists I’ve encountered tend to reflexively hate socialist states to the point that any nuanced take on them gets you the label without even expressing principled support as an ML. I sometimes think they hate ML socialism more than they hate capitalism, which is wild to me. Like, I think that most anarchists are idealistic and naive, but I still think they are comrades and I would happily live in their version of communism if it somehow came about.
You definitely are describing an unfortunately common phenomenon. Anarchism is not ideologically consistent by nature, it’s more loose, and therefore there is broader ideological breathing room than something as consistent and disciplined as the Marxist-derived ideologies. Many anarchists do end up critically supporting socialism as a consequence.
I’m still unconvienced that lemmygrad isn’t just people ironically saying stuff that people claim tankies say.
They’re serious and dedicated Marxist-Leninists. There’s some shitposting but there’s a lot of high-effort content there, just check this post out and read the replies. It’s abundantly clear that, even if you disagree, there’s a bunch of thought that goes into a lot of the positions over there.
When federation and the mass reddit migration happened it was always funny to see people call Hexbear’s anarchists tankies.
Because you don’t knee-jerk support all of Epsteinland’s vassals and hate all it’s enemies, and that lack of head-empty jingoism is more than enough to land you on the smug imperialist’s shitlist.
Old CPUSA recruitment line from the 1930s: “Wait, you think workers should get paid more, and be in charge of workplaces? What are you some kind of communist?”
Welcome, comrade, whether you want or not, we’ll fight for the revolution.