Cuisine is an element of culture and so a socially-defined thing. Few would argue that espresso isn’t a part of Italian cuisine, but it was only really invented in the 1930s (coffee had been consumed in Italy for long before that, of course). Ciabatta was invented in 1982 and I’m sure most Italians would be fine with serving that.
But pineapple on pizza is not just not part of the socially-defined Italian cuisine; it’s an antithesis to it! It’s an emblem to everyone of how you can take something that is part of a cuisine (pizza) and do something to it that is completely at odds with it. Whether you like pineapple on pizza or not, that should be clear.
So, it shouldn’t be surprising that some people feel strongly enough about what is and isn’t part of their cuisine and draw the line there. In my experience, many Italians do feel very strongly about their cuisine, more so than any other nationality I’ve talked to about food. Try asking some what they think about spaghetti and meatballs for an example that seems innocuous to most non-Italians.
I respect such viewpoints but I do think there are plenty of people who hold them without really understanding them - who don’t realise how malleable cultural elements like cuisine are and who think they’re actually upholding an objective and immutable standard. That’s clearly wrong, but just because what is part of a cuisine changes doesn’t mean everything is part of a cuisine.
For restaurants there’s a decision to make - do you stick to what you hold to be the authentic cuisine, or do something more accommodating of globalised expectations? There’s room for both… and individual cooks who aren’t the restaurant owner or whatever probably don’t get to make the call.
Well, what other flavours in Italian food would you compare it to? Don’t read too much into it, I just mean the flavour is far from what’s already there.
Good points. But I would argue that pizza more than almost any dish (maybe rivaled by hamburgers?) has far transcended its roots and become a true global phenomenon.
“Hawaiian” pizza, generally considered the origin of pineapple as a topping, started in Canada in 1962*. That’s almost 65 years ago and 20 years older than your example of Ciabatta.
And bear in mind that pizza only became international basically right after WWII, so if pineapple pizza was invented today, pizza would have only started becoming known to most in, say, North America in like 2013 or so.
It blows my mind how quickly it spread and became just something normal.
I think that’s one reason I’m perfectly fine with the places that do things like put corn on it. lol
Food is meant to be enjoyed. And nourish, but hopefully pleasantly so.
Unarguably it’s a global phenomenon. And personally I don’t greatly value authenticity - or adherence to a particularly canonical cuisine - but changes to a cuisine’s canon don’t just happen due to time passed; that was really my point with the ciabatta example, that it is accepted in spite of being very recent. I haven’t asked anyone explicitly about ciabatta, but I would guess that even though it happened recently, it’d be accepted by most Italians, even those who are fairly strict about what counts as authentic, as Italian cuisine.
Why, even though it’s so recent? Well, in the end it’s about social agreement, not rules, but there are probably some reasons that go into that agreement: it was developed in Italy; it has similarities to existing cuisine; those similarities were consciously developed; it doesn’t violate any implicit expectations in the existing cuisine. Hawaiian pizza certainly doesn’t share those aspects. That doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be accepted, but it means it’s harder.
To take another example, sandwiches are an accepted part of British cuisine, and have also well and truly transcended those roots and become global. But that doesn’t mean that banh mi are part of British cuisine!
Cuisine is an element of culture and so a socially-defined thing. Few would argue that espresso isn’t a part of Italian cuisine, but it was only really invented in the 1930s (coffee had been consumed in Italy for long before that, of course). Ciabatta was invented in 1982 and I’m sure most Italians would be fine with serving that.
But pineapple on pizza is not just not part of the socially-defined Italian cuisine; it’s an antithesis to it! It’s an emblem to everyone of how you can take something that is part of a cuisine (pizza) and do something to it that is completely at odds with it. Whether you like pineapple on pizza or not, that should be clear.
So, it shouldn’t be surprising that some people feel strongly enough about what is and isn’t part of their cuisine and draw the line there. In my experience, many Italians do feel very strongly about their cuisine, more so than any other nationality I’ve talked to about food. Try asking some what they think about spaghetti and meatballs for an example that seems innocuous to most non-Italians.
I respect such viewpoints but I do think there are plenty of people who hold them without really understanding them - who don’t realise how malleable cultural elements like cuisine are and who think they’re actually upholding an objective and immutable standard. That’s clearly wrong, but just because what is part of a cuisine changes doesn’t mean everything is part of a cuisine.
For restaurants there’s a decision to make - do you stick to what you hold to be the authentic cuisine, or do something more accommodating of globalised expectations? There’s room for both… and individual cooks who aren’t the restaurant owner or whatever probably don’t get to make the call.
How exactly is pineapple an “antithesis” of Italian cuisine?
Well, what other flavours in Italian food would you compare it to? Don’t read too much into it, I just mean the flavour is far from what’s already there.
Good points. But I would argue that pizza more than almost any dish (maybe rivaled by hamburgers?) has far transcended its roots and become a true global phenomenon.
“Hawaiian” pizza, generally considered the origin of pineapple as a topping, started in Canada in 1962*. That’s almost 65 years ago and 20 years older than your example of Ciabatta.
[*] Or possibly Portland, OR in 1957.
And bear in mind that pizza only became international basically right after WWII, so if pineapple pizza was invented today, pizza would have only started becoming known to most in, say, North America in like 2013 or so.
It blows my mind how quickly it spread and became just something normal.
I think that’s one reason I’m perfectly fine with the places that do things like put corn on it. lol
Food is meant to be enjoyed. And nourish, but hopefully pleasantly so.
Unarguably it’s a global phenomenon. And personally I don’t greatly value authenticity - or adherence to a particularly canonical cuisine - but changes to a cuisine’s canon don’t just happen due to time passed; that was really my point with the ciabatta example, that it is accepted in spite of being very recent. I haven’t asked anyone explicitly about ciabatta, but I would guess that even though it happened recently, it’d be accepted by most Italians, even those who are fairly strict about what counts as authentic, as Italian cuisine.
Why, even though it’s so recent? Well, in the end it’s about social agreement, not rules, but there are probably some reasons that go into that agreement: it was developed in Italy; it has similarities to existing cuisine; those similarities were consciously developed; it doesn’t violate any implicit expectations in the existing cuisine. Hawaiian pizza certainly doesn’t share those aspects. That doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be accepted, but it means it’s harder.
To take another example, sandwiches are an accepted part of British cuisine, and have also well and truly transcended those roots and become global. But that doesn’t mean that banh mi are part of British cuisine!
wow… i had no idea something like that was only made so recently. That’s kinda wild.
Well, ciabatta believe it!